20140957 Ver 2_ACP_July20_RockyMtHearing_Transcripts_20170811

Burdette, Jennifer a
From: Alex Wagner <[e-mail]>
Sent: Friday, August 11, 2017 2:30 PM
To: Burdette, Jennifer a
Subject: ACP July 18 and July 20 public hearing transcripts
Attachments: ACP_July20_PublicHearing_Recorder Lcloc; ACP_Julyl8_PublicHearing_Recorder Lcloc
Good afternoon, Jennifer. Draft transcripts are attached for both July hearings.
Thankyou!
-Alex

NC DENR
ACP July20_PublicHearing_Recorder
Bearden:
Karen Bearden
May:
Stephen May
Betts:
Tom Betts
Medlin:
Vic Medlin
Bissette:
Rob Bissette
Miller:
Eric Miller
Brown:
Gary Brown
Norris:
Steve Norris
Clark:
Tom Clark
Paranjape:
Oshin Paranjape
Cygan:
Irene Cygan
Parker:
Linwood Parker
Drake:
Roger Drake
Piracci:
Kim Piracci
D -York:
Katherine Davison -York
Poland:
Joe Poland
Edmundson:
Mavis Exum Edmundson
Przelomski:
Bonnie Przelomski
Etheridge:
Christy Etheridge
Richardson:
Dr. Marvin Richardson
Evans:
Earl Evans
Richmond:
Harvey Richmond
Faircloth:
Erica Faircloth
Ruggerio:
Greta Ruggerio
Finch:
Jane Flowers Finch
Schrader:
Anne Schrader
Fisher:
Linda Fisher
Scull:
Robert Scull
Fitzgerald:
Barbara Fitzgerald
Self.
Deb Self
Frank:
Maura Frank
Shannon:
Jamie Shannon
Glover:
Ese Glover
Sowerwine:
Margaret Sowerwine
Godwin:
Ted Godwin
Stewart:
Chad Stewart
Harrington:
Ann Harrington
Taylor:
Hope Taylor
Hawkins:
Angela Hawkins
Vick:
Therese Vick
Hensley:
Caroline Hensley
Wagner:
John Wagner
Hester:
Betsy Hester
Williams:
Valerie Williams
Hoffman:
John Hoffman
Winslow:
Kathy Winslow
J. Williams:
John Williams
Winstead:
Marvin Winstead
Jackson:
Rob Jackson
Wollett:
June Wollett
Johnson:
Sue Ellen Johnson
Wrenn:
Brian Wrenn
Joyner:
Belinda Joyner
Zhuang:
Jean Zhuang
Kathariou:
Sophie Kathariou
M/F:
Male/Female Speaker
00:00:23
Wrenn: Good evening.
The public hearing will now come to order. Before
we begin, I ask that everyone turn off or silence your cell phones
and pagers for the courtesy of the speakers.
My name is Brian Wrenn [ph], and I've been appointed by
the director of the Division of Water Resources that serves as the
hearing officer for this hearing, and I serve as the hearing officer

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder 1
Page 2
for the July 181h meeting [ph] in Fayetteville. I am supervisor of
the ecosystems branch in the division's central office.
At this time, I would like to introduce the representatives
from the Department of Environmental Quality.
00:00:57 F: Yes.
Wrenn: Jennifer Burdette [ph], 401 coordinator; Karen Haynes
[ph], 401 permitting branch Supervisor; Bridgette
Munger, Public Information Officer; Lynn Carson [ph],
environmental assistance and coordinator; Matt Hobb
[ph], stream and wetland mitigation coordinator; Joan Schneier
[ph], environmental specialist, Raleigh Regional Office; and
Shelton Sullivan [ph], compliance assistance specialist.
00:01:33 We also have some elected officials present tonight, a
representative of District 7, Bobbie Richardson [ph]; Nash County
Commissioner Robbie Davis [ph]; Town of Carrboro Council
Member Deborah Jordan [ph]; and representative of District 23,
Shelly Willingham [ph].
This hearing is being held under the authority of Title 15A
of the North Carolina Administrative Code 02H.0504 [ph]. In
accordance with 15A, North Carolina is with
02H.0503, a public notice for this hearing was published in the
Fayetteville Observer, the News & Observer, the Rocky Mount
Telegram, the Shaw News Herald, [INDISCERNIBLE] the Wilson
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder 1
Page 3
Times on June 17, 2017—and in the Daily Herald and the Sampson
Independent on June 18, 2017 and posted online and sent to mail
sent by mail to Water Quality Certification mailing list on June 16,
2017.
00:02:45 A correction to the public notice, to correct a typo on the
was posted online on June 19th, sent to the mailing
list on June 20th, and issued in the newspapers on June 21 and 22.
The purpose of this hearing is to obtain public comment on
the application for 401 water quality certification in riparian buffer
authorization from the Atlantic Coast Pipeline, LLC, through the
Atlantic Coast Pipeline project.
00:03:12 This hearing is not a question -and -answer session with
DEQ staff It is an opportunity for us to obtain community
feedback to the application.
I will be preparing a written record of these proceedings.
For this reason, the audio of this hearing is being recorded.
Written comments received by 5 p.m. on August 19th, 2017 will
also be included as part of the record. Written comments may be
submitted to the email address or postal address or postal address
found in the handout available at the registration desk.
00:03:43 Equal weight will be given to the written and oral
comments. I will now ask Jennifer Burdette, Division of Water
Resources, to make a short presentation.
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder 1
Page 4
Burdette: Thank you. [INDISCERNIBLE] Jennifer Burdette. I work for the
Department of Environmental Quality in the Division of Water
Resources. The division is reviewing pipelines
application for our Clean Water Act, Section 401, water quality
certification, and Neuse and Tar -Pamlico River basins, riparian
buffer authorization for the proposed addition to the pipeline and
supporting infrastructure.
00:04:24 The pipeline is proposed to be located in Northampton,
Calabash, Nash, Wilson, Johnson, Sampson, Cumberland, and
Robeson counties of North Carolina. The pipeline is proposed to
deliver natural gas from the Appalachian region to markets in
Virginia and North Carolina. It would enter North Carolina in
Northampton County in a 42 -inch pipeline to the Duke
compression station, located in North Carolina's border with
Virginia. A 36 -inch pipeline is proposed to carry the gas from the
compression station, generally along Interstate 95, through
Robeson County. Three metering [ph] and regulating stations, 11
valve sites, and four pig launcher/receivers, which are pipeline
inspection tools, are proposed to support the operation of the
pipeline.
00:05:12 A lateral pipeline is also proposed to connect the new
pressure [ph] station to the Norfolk, Virginia area. It would run
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder 1
Page 5
north/northeast for approximately 12 miles in North Carolina
before crossing into Virginia.
Along this route, the pipeline crosses approximately 342
surface waters [ph] of water volume and wells. Surface waters of
streams and ponds and the Neuse River. Seven crossings are
proposed to be installed near these rivers and large stream channels
listed on the slide, using horizontal directional drill method [ph].
00:05:46 This type of installation avoids impacts to the surface
water. On the next slide, I'll show you what this looks like and
briefly explain how it works.
Once construction is complete, the ground surface streams
and wetlands will be restored as near as practical to the creek
preconstruction condition [ph]. The total of approximately 35,951
linear feet of surface waters and 453 acres of wetland would be
temporarily impacted by construction.
00:06:15 Permanent impacts [ph] totaling approximately 766 [ph]
linear feet of surface water and 8/10 of an acre of wetlands would
result in upgraded farm roads and building new access roads to the
pipeline corridor.
Streamside buffers within the Neuse and Tar -Pamlico river
basins are protected by the state. These are also called riparian
buffers.
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder 1
Page 6
Impact to these areas adjacent to the stream and other
surface waters require buffer authorizations.
This is a cross-section showing how the pipeline is
installed, using a horizontal directional drill. A drill, set up on one
side of the water body, creates a horizontal pathway into the pipe
underneath the water.
00:06:56 Then the assembled pipe is pulled through the drilled
pathway to complete the crossing. This method is proposed for all
river crossings except the Neuse River, and large stream panels or
those that support protected species. Using this method avoids
surface disturbance, riparian and in -stream
construction.
00:07:19 Projects that require the Clean Water Act Section 404
permits from the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers must also receive
a 401 water quality certification from the state, for the permit to be
valid. Certifications are issued when the Division of Permits of
Water Quality Standards are met, including protection
[INDISCERNIBLE]. Water quality standards are a combination
numeric limit on pollutants, and criteria that maintain
the characteristics that are typical of these resources.
00:07:45 Existing uses consist of aquatic habitat include fishing;
wildlife; primary recreation, which is swimming; secondary
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder 1
Page 7
recreation, such as wading and boating; agriculture; and water
supply of both drinking and food processing.
For a project to be issued a certification, it must meet the
following criteria. The project has no practical alternative,
minimizes impacts to surface water and wetlands, based on the
consideration of the existing topography, vegetation, fish and
wildlife, resources, and hydrological conditions.
00:08:22 The project does not result in the degradation of
groundwater or surface water, does not result in cumulative impact
based upon past or reasonably anticipated future impacts that cause
or will cause downstream water quality standards,
and, lastly, provides replacement of the existing uses through
mitigation.
An alternative analysis was completed as part of a Federal
Energy Regulatory Commission National Environmental Policy
Act review. It's included a no -action alternative, alternative
energy sources, energy conservation, system alternatives, and two
conceptual alternatives were also evaluated. An eastern route
along I-95 is the proposed route, and a western route was located
west of Durham.
00:09:11 Also, a southern route to the lateral pipeline was evaluated
and selected around the Great Dismal Swamp and National
Wildlife Refuge and State Park.
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder I
Page 8
ACP also evaluated several major route alternatives.
Initially a baseline was developed using location of receipt
delivery points, engineering and constructability criteria, terrain,
and existing land use. Then alternatives were evaluated to
avoid/minimize impacts to localized resources and stakeholders
which involved mainly conservation easements, cultural resource
sites [ph], forest areas including avoidance and colocation with
existing utility corridors, protection of plants and animals,
stakeholder concerns, and surface waters and wetlands.
00:09:59 ACP has also taken steps to minimize the impact of
construction on surface waters and wetlands. At surface water
crossings, they will install temporary bridges to reduce the
potential for sediment impact. We use methods to work and drive
while routing water around the work area, where feasible. They
have plans for removing fish and other aquatic species from
dewatered [ph] work areas.
00:10:24 After construction, they will use water from municipal
sources for testing the pipeline integrity, except for the Tar River
and crossings [ph]. And they will restore stream
beds and banks to near -primeval [ph] pre-existing conditions after
pipeline installation.
In wetland areas, they will limit the width of the
construction right-of-ways, which I'll show you on the next slide.
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder 1
Page 9
They will look into the additional temporary workspaces
50 feet from wetland boundaries [ph], will maintain
sediment barriers during construction, will restore the ground
surface to pre-existing conditions after pipeline installation, will
re -seed the construction corridor with a native seed mix, and will
impose construction maintenance of vegetation within the pipeline
easement.
00:11:08 This is a drawing showing what the typical right-of-ways in
the wetlands would look like during construction. The total width
of the construction right-of-ways would be reduced from 110 feet
to 75 feet wetlands.
Topsoil would be removed first and
segregated [ph] from the subsoil below for wetland restoration.
The trench [ph] will be centered with a 50 -foot permanent
easement of the pipeline, leaving 50 feet for construction
equipment needed to install the pipeline at the trench and travel
along the construction corridor.
00:11:43 As I mentioned earlier, mitigation is required to provide for
the replacement of the existing uses. Surface water and wetland
impacts [ph] will be restored after construction are temporary and
do not require mitigation for the 401 water quality certification,
because the impact does not result in the laws of the resource.
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder 1
Page 10
It is important to note that the Corps of Engineers will
require mitigation for permanent conversion of forested areas,
forest and wetlands and those [ph], to wetland plan in
the pipeline, even though that would be permanently maintained
[Ph]
00:12:14 For the 401 certification, mitigation to provide replacement
of existing uses is required for permanent impacts [ph] that will
result in access to further development [ph]. Mitigation requires
restoration of the stream, wetland or buffers [ph] somewhere else
in the same watershed as the impact.
There are three options available for mitigating the
surface water or wetlands, and streamside buffers.
The applicant can make payment to a private mitigation bank to
purchase credit for completed restoration projects. They can make
payment to a state program that performs restoration projects, or
restoration can be performed by or on behalf of the applicant
directly [ph].
00:13:00 ACP plans a tiered approach to their mitigation plan. They
will purchase mitigation credits from a private mitigation bank
when credits are available. If credits are not available, ACP will
purchase credit through a state program. Lastly, ACP may propose
to provide mitigation themselves when neither of these options are
available.
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder 1
Page 11
Lastly, I will outline the 401 water quality certification
process and its timeline. The division, Army Corps of Engineers,
and state and federal resources agencies [ph] with an engaging pre -
application consultation with ACP since 2014. To avoid and
minimize impacts to surface waters, wetlands, and streamside
buffers.
00:13:43 In March of this year, the department organized a meeting
of all the divisions that are responsible for possible permits for
projects. The conservation groups and other agency stakeholders
could hear these concerns. One concern that we heard from
several stakeholders was that the process as an
individual certification instead of the more abbreviated general
certification process. The department adopted this
recommendation and planned two hearings to facilitate stakeholder
input into the process.
00:14:08 We've received ACP's application for certification and
authorization [ph] from May 81h. On June 16th, we issued a public
notice in the project [ph] and announced that two hearings would
be held, which was also published in the newspapers serving
counties on the project on the 17th and 18th. We issued
a correction of the public notice a few days later, due to a
typographical error in the pipeline reported [ph]. A
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder 1
Page 12
request for additional information about the project was issued on
June 27th
00:14:39 And the information was received on July 12th. In addition
to the hearing tonight, a hearing was also held in Fayetteville on
Tuesday. The public -comment hearing for written comments will
remain open until August 19th
A decision on the application will be issued September 18th
unless additional information necessary to process the application
is needed and not yet available.
Written comments can be submitted here tonight, or by
mail or email to the applicable address shown. Thank you.
00:15:20 Wrenn: That concludes the division's presentation. At this time, we will
hear from the audience and from those who have signed up to
speak. I will call on those who signed up to speak, first. If others
feel that they would like to comment, they will be given the
opportunity to do so, should time allow.
To be sure that hear from all who wish to speak, there will
be a three-minute time limit on providing comments.
If you have registered to speak but wish to give your time
to another speaker, you may do so, for a maximum of nine
minutes.
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder I
Page 13
Staff will keep track of the time and raise a sign to indicate
when you have one minute left, 30 seconds left, and when your
time is up.
Speakers are encouraged to provide a written copy of your
comments.
Cross-examination of speakers will not be allowed.
However, I may ask questions for clarification.
00:16:04 As I mentioned earlier, we are recording this hearing.
Background noise can drown out the voice of the speakers, so
please hold any applause until after the speaker has finished.
If anyone has a sign, we ask that you hold them up now so
that we may take photos of them to be included as part of the
record.
00:16:35 [OVERLAPPINGINDISCERNIBLE]
[INAUDIBLE]
00:18:07 Wrenn: To ensure everyone has a clear view of the proceedings, we ask
that you refrain from waving signs and [INDISCERNIBLE].
If you are not signed into the hearing, please do so before
you leave so that we can have an accurate record of those in
attendance.
For logistical information, we have exits at the back of the
auditorium and at the front. Bathrooms are on either end of the
hall out front where the registration desk is located.
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

00:18:37
00:19:12 Wrenn
[APPLAUSE]
NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder 1
Page 14
I'll now call the speakers in the order they registered. To
ensure that our records are accurate, please clearly state your name
and, if applicable, the organization you're representing. In
addition, we ask that you identify other associations you may have
that have bearing on your tonight. For example, if
you're appearing on your own behalf but have obtained
information from or provided research to another group that is
interested in this matter, please indicate so. Thank you for your
cooperation.
Our first speaker tonight will be Barbara Exum [ph].
00:19:32 Edmundson: Good evening. Number 13 has foregone her minutes to me, Mavis
Exum Edmundson [ph].
F: You can
Edmundson: Thank you.
F: How's that?
Edmundson: Good. Good evening. I'm Barbara Exum. I'm here tonight
because my family's farm is in the direct path of this proposed
pipeline. I'm opposed to this project for three reasons. Number
one, it threatens our vital water resource. Number two, it
disproportionately affects people of color. And number three, this
gas is simply not needed.
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder 1
Page 15
00:20:13 I live in Wilson County, near the Bulkhorn Reservoir [ph]
and the Contentnea Creek [ph]. Bulkhorn Reservoir is a primary
source of water for the City of Wilson. It covers 2,300 acres. It
has a capacity of seven billion gallons of water. It is the primary
source of water for the City of Wilson and much of the county.
Overflow from the reservoir travels down to Contentnea Creek to
the Wiggins Mill Water Treatment Plant [ph], where it's treated for
the City of Wilson.
Any contaminants that get into this Contentnea Creek from
drilling, clearing, trenching, or operations of a gas pipeline will
threaten the water source for the entire city and towns downstream,
all the way to the Neuse River Basin [ph].
00:20:58 ACP officials keep saying that the Contentnea Creek will
be just fine. We're counting on you, our Department of
Environmental Quality, and this 401 permitting process to ensure
that Wilson and other towns along Contentnea Creek don't become
replicas of what went wrong in Flint, Michigan.
The pipeline disproportionately impacts black and brown
communities. It runs through some of the most rural and low-
income and economically depressed counties in the state. Now,
white folk in this room will look around and say that's not true,
because they don't live in low-income and depressed
neighborhoods. And that may not be true for them in their
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder 1
Page 16
neighborhoods, but it is certainly true when you look at the state of
North Carolina and the communities impacted, disproportionately
black and brown communities.
00:21:54 This is not just my opinion. Independent studies have
documented and proven this to be fact, not just the opinion of
black and brown folk.
ACP sees us as poor, uneducated, not able to fight back.
They see our lives as a low risk to their business practice. Again,
this is not my opinion. Independent studies have documented and
proven this to be fact. Facts that should not be ignored in your
review processes. You, our North Carolina DEQ, represent all
North Carolinians, including communities of color.
00:22:36 This project is not needed. ACP says the purpose of this
pipeline is to serve the growing energy demands of public utilities
and local distribution companies. This statement is misleading,
because it only considers the growth and the gas demand. It
doesn't consider the growth and demands for renewable sources,
where North Carolina's demand is second only to California.
It fails to consider the overall electric demand has been
essentially flat. This is not just my opinion. It's documented
studies show that the pipeline is not necessary to meet future
demands. These same studies show the demand is expected to stay
at the same level until 2030. Yes—static for the next 13 years.
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder 1
Page 17
00:23:27 So what's the big rush with this project? Could it be that
ACP fears the growing demand for renewable and alternative
energy sources where they won't have a chokehold?
ACP claims the pipeline will reduce energy costs for the region.
However, their own documents show that 97% of the gas will be
sold to other power plants, yet they will seek repeated hikes for us
rate payers to ensure that we pay the full construction cost of this
unnecessary pipeline. No risk for them. Plus, we'll pay a
guaranteed return to their stockholders through these self-dealing
practices.
00:24:11 Nowhere else in this great country can a business control
supply, manipulate demand, and have us—the rate payers—take all
the risk.
At your hearing on Tuesday night, in Fayetteville, I heard a
speaker make an analogy between the I-95 project and this pipeline
project. He intimated that, oh, we should get used to it just like we
did I-95. Well, there's no comparison between I-95 and this
project. I-95 was never, ever a for-profit project. It was good for
the masses. And yes, we all reap the benefits when we travel.
00:24:53 This pipeline is clearly a for-profit venture by private
industry for the profit of their shareholders. A huge difference
between this and I-95.
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder I
Page 18
And in closing, I urge you not to sell North Carolina
residents short, and reject this project. Thank you.
[APPLAUSE]
Wrenn: Our next speaker is Tom Betts.
00:25:40 Betts: Thank you. My name is Tom Betts. I'm a private citizen. I am
the former Vice Chairman of the Nash County Industrial
Development Commission and the former Chairman of the
Carolinas Gateway Partnership, which is the economic
development organization in Nash and Edgecombe County. And I
am very much in favor of the Atlantic Coast Pipeline.
These are the best of times that we are living in.
[LAUGHTER]
00:26:17 Betts: The potential for economic growth is greater than it has ever been
in my lifetime. The announcement by CSX [ph] of locating an
intermodal [ph] facility in this area will unleash unprecedented
economic development opportunities for our area.
And yes, we do have many poor and underserved
communities in our area. And what we need, more than anything,
is jobs, jobs, jobs, and more jobs.
00:27:03 Now, in this area, we are quite fortunate, because we have
many tools for economic development. We have the North-South
Railroad. We have Interstate 95, U.S. 64, and we have the future
Interstate 87, which will be an interstate to the port of Norfolk.
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder I
Page 19
We have desirable [ph] industrial sites and a very, very ample
supply of labor—people that want jobs, and more importantly,
people that need jobs.
00:27:38 We are missing one thing. The Atlantic Coast Pipeline will
provide the natural-gas supply that will encourage heavy users of
this clean and efficient fuel to locate in our area. It will also
provide substantial local revenue in the form of taxes, which will
assist funding for programs like education and public safety.
We are close. We are this close to a huge economic boon.
If we can get the Atlantic Coast Pipeline here, that's all we need to
provide jobs, jobs, jobs, and more jobs.
We have waited and we have worked, for years, for jobs,
jobs, jobs, and more jobs. Our citizens want them. They demand
them. They need them. And it's the only right thing to do.
[IZIY►.�.-[�lG'►/
[APPLAUSE]
Wrenn: Our next speaker is Chad Stewart [ph].
00:29:13 Stewart: Good evening. My name's Chad Stewart. I'm a Johnston County
Commissioner.
F: Could you speak up, please?
Stewart: My name's Chad Stewart. I'm a Johnson County Commissioner.
I'm also a landowner in Johnston County. I own two farms.
They're family farms that's been in our generation for—for several
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder I
Page 20
generations. The Atlantic Coast Pipeline is going across both of
them.
00:29:38 Now, in the beginning, when I heard the news, I was not
real excited about, nor were my neighbors. But after talking with
the Atlantic Coast Pipeline and after deliberations, talking with
them and receiving information from them, I settled the Atlantic
Coast Pipeline.
They were very courteous during the process. They were
very forthcoming. Very truthful. They did everything they said
they would do, and I'm satisfied.
I still have some neighbors that have not settled. I have
others that have. I have talked with them, and they were opposed
to it in the beginning. But they told me they were satisfied, and
they had the same experience I did.
00:30:18 Now, that being said, my family also owns a horticulture
nursery within half a mile of this gas line. We depend on water
quality. We had our quarterly meeting today, and we do not feel
this is going to impact us in a negative way, whatsoever. Thank
you for your time.
[APPLAUSE]
00:30:40 Wrenn: Our next speaker is Vic Medlin [ph].
Parker: [INDISCERNIBLE] is not here. [INDISCERNIBLE] use his time.
Wrenn: I'm sorry, who—?
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder I
Page 21
Parker: Vic Medlin's not here.
Wrenn: Okay.
Parker: And I just asked if [INDISCERNIBLE].
Wrenn: Okay. Your name is?
Parker: Linwood Parker [ph].
F: Are you signed up?
Parker: Yes, ma'am. I'm signed up.
F: He's giving you the timewe don't have that in our records.
[OVERLAPPINGINDISCERNIBLE]
Parker: That's all right. That's fine with me. I'll get a chance to speak, in
just a moment, so, I didn't object to anybody else speaking. I don't
see why [INDISCERNIBLE] can't be put in the thing
[INDISCERNIBLE] but I've got to see if I can find
[INDISCERNIBLE]. I don't have a problem with that
[INDISCERNIBLE].
[OVERLAPPINGINDISCERNIBLE].
00:32:42 Wrenn: Give us one second so we can work this out [INDISCERNIBLE].
[OVERLAPPINGINDISCERNIBLE].
00:33:28 Wrenn: Mr. Medlin is donating his time to Mr. Parker, so when Mr. Parker
speaks in the number 5th [ph] position, he will have six minutes.
[OVERLAPPINGINDISCERNIBLE].
Wrenn: The next speaker is John Hoffman.
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder 1
Page 22
Hoffman: I'm Dr. John Hoffman, medical oncologist here in Rocky Mount.
I've been treating cancer patients here for over 20 years, and I
wanted to quickly raise a couple of points with regards to water
safety with this project.
00:34:14 The first is that this is not a natural-gas pipeline.
Contractually, this is an in -perpetuity easement, allowing Duke,
Dominion, and whoever they would put this in the hands of later,
to run natural gas or whatever product they deem appropriate
through this pipeline in perpetuity.
So all of these safeguards that you're looking at now, in 10
or 20 years, that shale in West Virginia's gone, and somebody else
is going to be coming to you looking for who knows—oil, waste
products, whatever—to see if what they have set up will
accommodate their waste.
00:34:50 The next point is that all the rivers in eastern North
Carolina are affected this. This isn't coal ash in the Dan River.
This is everything from Chowan down to Lumber, and it's the
same risk all the way through. There will be no diminution of risk
with this massive, 1.5 billion cubic feet per day of natural gas
coming through, because, as of now, there are two taps off this
pipeline for the entire state of North Carolina, one in Johnston
County, one in Cumberland County.
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder 1
Page 23
00:35:27 There's a tap in Lumberton, but that's an end -of -the -line
tap that will, I assume, make it easier to hook it up to wherever it's
going next. So the job issued—there's two taps on the whole
pipeline coming through. So all of this product will be crossing
every river in eastern North Carolina, with everyone at the same
risk.
And at 1.5 billion feet per day, even if more taps come
along, there's no way eastern North Carolina uses even 20 or 30
percent of this. And I doubt those taps are coming, because the
sign -on fee is seven figures, somewhere between one million and
five million just to sign up. Not your monthly fee. That's just the
ante -up in the poker game.
00:36:19 Not everybody's got that kind of money, and even if they
do, they're going to be using a fraction of this.
So I'm not against natural gas. But I'm against this project,
because the entirety of the eastern third of this state is put at
ongoing, eternal risk for the benefit of somebody else down the
line. And if we turn the whole eastern part of this state into Flint,
Michigan or worse, over the next 20 years, our kids and grandkids
can't say a thing about it, because the legal paperwork's already
been signed up.
Thank you for coming. Thank you for helping our state
with this project.
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder 1
Page 24
00:36:57 [APPLAUSE]
Wrenn: Our next speaker is Hope Taylor [ph].
Taylor: Good evening. I'm Hope Taylor of Clean Water for North
Carolina and Frack-Free NC Alliance, groups that work against
fracking and harmful natural-gas infrastructure, as well.
And I want to talk about groundwater, because well
protection is a major focus of our organization, which works a lot
with rural groups, rural residents.
00:37:44 The ACP 401 application and construction detail fail to
acknowledge the likely impacts of construction and pipeline
operation on local groundwater or to ensure measures will be taken
to prevent them.
Pipeline can change surface -drainage patterns which can
decrease groundwater recharge and therefore decreasing
groundwater re—discharge to streams, as well.
Trench construction and backfill changes the conductivity
of near -surface groundwater flow, which can either cause
preferential flow of groundwater or block that flow.
00:38:20 These impacts can decrease surface base flow of streams,
cause wetlands to dry more quickly, and cause more contaminants
to reach streams and aquifers.
For most of its length in North Carolina, the ACP would be
located above the northern coastal plain aquifer system, with the
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder 1
Page 25
uppermost sand aquifers at shallow depths being particularly
vulnerable to contamination or disruption due to human activities.
00:38:50 Given the large number of households within a half -mile of
the proposed corridor dependent on well water, even with
additional precautions, construction could adversely affect
drinking -water supplies.
The draft environmental -impact statement acknowledges
that there are a large number of private wells within 150 feet of the
pipeline workspace, especially in Nash, Johnston, and Cumberland
companies, and that the ACP and its contractors have not
completed their survey as of yet.
00:39:22 Finally, the tying up of massive amounts of investment and
the forcing of utility rate payers to pay for the cost of the Atlantic
Coast Pipeline is utterly unjustified. According to a number of
well -researched studies, there is no demonstrated need for this
pipeline to be built and no reasonable expectation of substantial
jobs or economic development in the rural areas through which the
pipeline would predominantly pass.
00:39:54 Thus, there is no reason to tolerate the damage to North
Carolina's waters and wetlands that even a much stronger permit
than this one could not prevent.
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder 1
Page 26
The alternatives analysis was replete with unsubstantiated
statements, particularly the relative number of jobs and the impacts
for renewable energy and efficiency.
And we call for this permit not to be approved by the state
of North Carolina. Thank you.
[APPLAUSE]
00:40:31 Wrenn: Our next speaker is Belinda Joyner [ph].
Joyner: Good evening. I'm Belinda Joyner, and I'm from Northampton
County, which I feel it's been used for a dumping ground over and
over again, and that's what we see it as. We are a population of
about 22,000, 58% African American, and as you look at this
pipeline route, you can see that the communities that is bound for
communities of color. Low income, we're 27% poverty.
00:41:11 And just last month, we went door to door to communities
that are within a few hundred feet of the pipeline and found almost
no awareness even in neighborhoods that are in high -concern
areas, consequences areas, meaning neighborhoods with over 20
occupied buildings within 660 feet or potential blast zones up to
1.4 miles.
Blasting is likely to cause loud noise and other impacts to
local residents, drinking -water wells, springs, wetlands, and local
hydrology. But no measures are specified to minimize or prevent
these impacts. In Northampton and Halifax County, the
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder 1
Page 27
application indicates 13 open -cut crossings with potential blasting
but fails to describe how the blasting would be conducted at open -
stream crossings.
00:42:04 Any blasting that cannot be avoided must be conducted
using dams and pumps. If blasting is required at an open-end [ph]
crossing, the crossing method should be changed to the method
with fewer impacts.
And not only is this pipeline destroying our wildlife and
our wetlands, but Northampton County has been saddled with the
compressor station, and we know that pipeline and compressor
stations begin with—bring with them a lot of health risks and
damages.
00:42:38 Communities of color have long been targeted for
disruptive infrastructure projects and polluting facilities, including
pipelines and compressor stations that causes health problems for
the surrounding communities.
The specific volatile organic compounds that are emitted by
compressor stations have been associated with several serious
health problems, including cancers, respiratory, and cardiovascular
industry—illnesses and birth defects.
00:43:08 I see this pipeline as destructive. Not only is it killwill
kill people. It's killing wildlife, and only those who will get the
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder I
Page 28
money will prevent—profit from this while they are killing off our
people and our wildlife. So I ask you not to
[APPLAUSE]
Wrenn: Our next speaker is Roger Drake [ph].
Drake: Good evening. I'm Roger Drake. I live here in Nash County. I
am vice president of NSTOP [ph], which is Nash Stop the Pipeline.
And I'm going to share something. These are—it's about water,
and it's about water resources, which is, I guess, what we're
focusing on tonight.
00:44:25 I'm not from here. I grew up in a river town in Ohio,
Zanesville, the Y -Bridge City, because we had a "y" bridge at the
confluence of the two rivers that meet there. They were part of our
life and our culture.
And I remember a job I had once summer while in high
school, an intermittent chore shared with two buddies, one whose
father headed a public works. We were sewage wastewater
checkers at a slaughterhouse along one of the rivers, probably for
vacationing regular checkers.
00:44:52 On three different occasions that summer, we had to
manage hourly the sewage channel in the basement of the packing
plant, recording the depth of the wastewater, the temperature, flow,
visual appearance of the effluent being sent out into the river.
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder 1
Page 29
I had the graveyard shift, 11 to 7, for recording the hourly
checks. It was boring. And you couldn't get a transistor radio
signal in the concrete basement.
On the positive side, they only slaughter during the day, so
I only reported minor fluctuations in the cloudy, gray, liquid flow.
So there's a reminiscence on water quality on an Ohio river
52 years ago.
00:45:29 I did note other water occurrences. From a journal that
following year, May 27, 1966. Went to the prom. Ebb Tide. The
whole thing was supposed to look like it was under water. Then
the after -prom. May 28th. Went to a party at Bill's. At 8:00 went
to Pam's party on the Muskingum River. Got onboard just as it
started to rain. May 29th. We put the canoe in above Dylan Falls.
Took the rapids down the Licking River to the Y bridge and down
Muskingum.
00:46:03 Well, three days later, we graduated and went our separate
ways to college. Bill became an attorney and stayed in town. I
became a theater designer and later a nursing-home administrator
and moved around, and in 2001 arrived in North Carolina as a
college theater professor. In 2007, I bought a 1917 farmhouse and
adjacent acreage. My guess is my Carolina country someday -
retirement retreat. In 2014 the Atlantic Coast Pipeline invasion
began, and I was in their path.
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder I
Page 30
00:46:33 What to do? Well, it occurred to me my old river -city
buddy, Bill, is not only an attorney but an oil and gas attorney. So
I called him to tell him of my attackers, and he asked, "Who?"
And I told him Dominion, and he said, well, he represented
Dominion in Ohio and couldn't help.
F: OH.
Drake: But I can remember his brief advice. Dominion is going to get
what Dominion wants, so just get the best deal you can from them.
Well, I'm sorry. I can't do that. I can think back to fishing
with my uncle, parties on boats and along the banks, canoeing, and
what rivers and streams meant to me growing up, and not fear for
what can happen to all that is associated with water resources in
North Carolina.
00:47:14 So I'm here, and here are my written comments and
rationale for denying their permit. Thank you.
[APPLAUSE]
Wrenn: Our next speaker is Joe Poland.
00:47:50 Poland: Hi. I'm Joe Poland, Nash County. I want to thank you for
allowing us a voice in a very dangerous project that needs to be
stopped, the Atlantic Coast Pipeline.
I want to relate to you an incident that I saw that I was at
[ph]. There was an eight -inch, yellow pipeline put through Nash
County, parts of it, on State Road 1001 at the Big Sapony Creek. I
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder 1
Page 31
would go down and watch them work. Some days, they'd quit,
because they didn't want me to watch them.
00:48:25 But they cracked that bed to stream some sewage problem
[ph]. Nobody reported it. They didn't self-report it. Nobody else
reported it. The brought in big trucks, 16 wheelers, with tanks.
They used vacuum -type equipment to suck out the sediment, and
then they poured back in blue chemicals that are in the bottle [ph]
zone that are extreme cancer-causing agents.
00:48:55 They also used cancer-causing agents to drill through the
red rock, and they had to bring in a special, high-powered drill to
do this. I was there. I saw that. I watched them do it.
Now, a comment was made between two of the workers,
that they had to use the same drill and equipment a few miles down
the road on the Tar River, and they had the exact same problem
there.
I was not at that, but I know what I saw, and I know with
this comment, they were indicating that they had the very same
problems on the Tar River.
00:49:35 And this information has not been disclosed to anyone
before, to anyone, but it's time somebody knew about it.
Now, I'm in the blast zone, and that means I'll be gone.
But everybody thinks about that, but it's other problems. There are
long-term problems. There are long-term environmental changes.
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

00:50:12
00:50:42
[APPLAUSE]
00:51:20 Wrenn
00:51:38 Richardson
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com
NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder I
Page 32
There'll be health problems. And we must protect ourselves
against these long-term problems, as well.
There is only about 4% of fresh water in this world that is,
actually, immediately available. Some of it, for example, in
icebergs.
Methane gas is going to be leaked through the waterways,
the land, and the air at a rate as high as 7% through the entire
pipeline. It's not acceptable. Over 500 waterways in North
Carolina will be affected. This is a huge risk. My grandmother
said, "Don't put all your eggs in one basket." Let's not do that.
This is really a big scam to make money for the energy companies
and probably to sell it overseas.
Energy companies are—reports and studies are not often
done properly. This shouldn't be allowed. This is one reason to
deny the permits. Until they get their stuff together, we shouldn't
accept it.
I want to see North Carolina great, not destroyed. And that,
I appreciate if you would deny the permit, and thank you.
The next speaker is Dr. Marvin Richardson [ph].
[SPEAKS NATIVE AMERICAN DIALECT]. Dr. Marvin, Marty,
Richardson. [SPEAKS NATIVE AMERICAN DIALECT].

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder I
Page 33
How are you all doing? My name is Dr. Marvin, Marty,
Richardson. I'm a citizen of the Haliwa-Saponi Indian tribe. I'm
glad that I can stand here with you today. Thank you for allowing
me to speak to you. And I want to say that I'm here representing
the other minority folks, the other folks of color that are not black,
that are not brown, but are native to this area.
00:52:22 I'm speaking, today, to voice my opposition to propose the
Atlantic Coast Pipeline, for several reasons, including the negative
impact on our environment, the disturbance to sacred and
archaeological sites of my ancestors, the lack of consultation with
the sovereign nations in our state, and my belief that we should all
make a stronger effort to build an infrastructure and make the
sacrifices needed to support and use renewable energy sources.
00:52:51 The Atlantic Coast Pipeline will have a devastating impact
on our forests, wetlands, streams, and rivers, wildlife, and our
atmosphere. The process of installing the pipeline will destroy
habitats for animals and disturb our water. Once installed, the
natural gas flowing through the pipeline will pose a threat to our
environmental health. If leaks occur, it could cause a natural
disaster.
If these actions—these disasters have often been
downplayed, ignored, and forgotten. The ACP will promote
increased use of natural gas, which causes pollution and global
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder I
Page 34
warming emissions. We should focus our efforts on energy
sources that are renewable and try to reduce our energy usage.
00:53:36 In our native way, we have a concept of the seven
generations. Our goal is to think about how and what we do today
will affect generations to come. I would like tolike our non-
native leaders to accept the seven generations way of thinking and
lead our citizens to a way of life that preserves the earth for our
ancestors to come after us.
00:53:57 Many of our people oppose the Atlantic Coast Pipeline
because of disturbances to sacred sites, burial grounds, and village
sites along the pipe's path and the lack of consultation about these
matters. Our tribe, Saponi, Nansemond, Tuscarora, and other
indigenous ancestors occupied the courses [ph] of Brunswick,
Greensville, Suffolk, Norfolk, and Southampton counties, Virginia,
as well as Northampton, Halifax, Nash, and Nash counties, North
Carolina.
00:54:27 And the Atlantic Coast Pipeline will destroy important sites
and areas without any consideration of their significance to
surviving, indigenous ancestors or our tribal rights and claims.
and Duke Energy and others in support or involved
with the pipeline should engage in a meaningful dialog and
consultation with native nations to make sure their concerns are
properly considered and mitigated.
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

My time is up
[APPLAUSE]
NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder 1
Page 35
00:55:04 Wrenn: The next speaker is Marvin Winstead [ph], Jr.
Winstead: My name is Marvin Winstead, Jr. I'm a resident of Nash County.
I live on a farm approximately 10 miles southwest of where we are
assembled this evening. Thank you for coming to ground zero.
The proposed route for the pipeline is within a mile of where we
are gathered at this time.
00:55:30 If this horrendous proposed pipeline gash becomes a reality, the
Nash Community College administration will experience the need
to evacuate this campus if a problem occurs with the pipeline. We
are that close.
I'm concerned and distressed by this proposed pipeline.
The project has been proven by unbiased, empirical, analytical
studies to be unnecessary. It is not needed.
In my own situation, my home will be devastated by the
construction process. My farm has a long, rectangular shape,
narrowing to a peak on the northern boundary. The Atlantic Coast
Pipeline corporate bullies plan to enter my property on the
northeastern corner and bisect my farm on a diagonal pathway that
brings the pipe 275 feet of my 90 -year-old ancestral home and
connects on the southern boundary.
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder 1
Page 36
00:56:23 In one of my fields, the proposed pipeline will sever an
underground tile -drainage system that was installed by my father
over 50 years ago. This drain system greatly improved drainage
conditions on the south end of the farm and improved crop use.
The Atlantic Coast Pipeline CEOs are not concerned about
the harm that this proposed pipeline will cause to my property.
They are only concerned by corporate profits and shareholder
dividends. They have no moral compass about the damage and
harm this 597 -mile environmental nightmare will cause for
impacted landowners and neighbors that live nearby.
00:57:00 The current proposed route will destroy a tree on my farm
that is very, very special to me. It's the pine tree that I call the
,'mother tree." This tree is 90 to 100 years old and stands in the
middle of a field. My parents married and moved to this farm in
December 1949. In early 1950, my father started to make some
changes on the farm and planned to cut this tree down. My mother
loved trees and asked him not to cut it down. It's been continuous
stand there since 1950.
00:57:32 The Atlantic Coast Pipeline surveyors made a beeline to this tree.
Their proposed route will needlessly destroy it. They will whack it
down and chip it up. The ACP engineers will destroy thousands of
trees all along those 597 -mile corridor. They plan to completely
waste these trees by chipping them and dumping them in landfills
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder I
Page 37
or if the landowner foolishly permits them, blow them out on the
adjoining property of the landowner.
00:58:01 This proposed pipeline cannot be constructed without
harming almost every major river in eastern North Carolina, as
well as creeks, small streams, and wetlands. It does not meet
clean -water quality standards. Environmental departments in four
states have denied water quality permits to stop several
[ph] proposed pipeline projects.
Please deny the ACP water quality permit application.
Thank you for being here tonight and conducting this hearing.
[APPLAUSE]
00:58:41 Wrenn: [INDISCERNIBLE]
F: Good evening. Thank you for coming here to hear all of us. Now,
I don't live close by, but I know others who do, and I feel for all
those who will suffer from this pipeline. I live in Chapel Hill. The
proposed 600 -mile Atlantic Coast Pipeline from Virginia through
eastern North Carolina is unneeded, dangerous, costly, and a
blatant act of environmental racism.
00:59:32 The shorter, original route through Raleigh was loudly
rejected by Raleigh's affluent community. Robeson County is
home to five Native American tribes, low-income white and
African-American, and some Latino families, who are being fed
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder 1
Page 38
misinformation by Duke and Dominion about lots of good jobs and
tax flowing into their county offices.
Nearly 600 acres of forested wetlands would be cleared for
construction, causing irreparable harm, as the wetlands provide
natural water filtration and protect and replenish surface waters.
01:00:24 Making an eight -foot -deep trench through the wetlands
creates a preferential flow path for contaminants to reach
downstream waters, and the deforestation from creating a 75 -foot -
wide rights of way through wetlands would cause shade and
unsuitable temperatures for animals and other living creatures.
The human brain and heart are comprised of almost 73%
water. Water is life. The ACP will cross nearly seven miles of
streams and destroy nearly 28 acres of forest and riverside
vegetation. Wisdom should surely agree, the risks outweigh the
benefits. Accidents happen with all pipelines. Renewable energy,
like wind, solar, and geothermal will never run out, but oil and gas
will.
The natural-gas leak in Loudoun County, Virginia spread
for 10 miles, resulting in hundreds of emergency calls and hasty
evacuations of the people.
01:01:48 Homeowners are worried about being close to the potential
impact radius, or blast zone, which would extend 943 feet. As
pipeline talks continue, home values plummet, having people
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder 1
Page 39
living here three or four generations will not be able to sell their
homes. This is the wrong thing to do. I hope that you will look at
this from everybody's viewpoint and say "no" to the pipeline.
Thank you.
[APPLAUSE]
01 :02:34 Wrenn: Our next speaker is Karen Bearden [ph].
Bearden: Hi. My name is Karen Bearden. I am a 350 Triangle coordinator.
I have lived in Raleigh for almost 20 years. As an avid
birdwatcher, advocate for the earth, and local food advocate, many
things about the possibility of the proposed ACP upset me. I'll
mention it to you.
01 :03:02 Water is life. Water is the lifeblood of all ecosystems. The
proposed Atlantic Coast Pipeline route crosses several major North
Carolina rivers, hundreds of smaller tributaries and feeder streams,
and miles of wetlands, endangering all living creatures. Nearly
600 acres of forested wetlands would be cleared for construction.
Wetlands are critical to protect since they—wetlands are
critical to protect because they provide natural water filtration and
protect and replenish surface waters.
01 :03:36 It's all connected. Pipelines destroy habitat, pollute the air,
water, and soil. All pipelines eventually leak. Loss of forest
wetlands and clearing upland forests creates fragmentation of
forests that threatens the habitat of wildlife.
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder 1
Page 40
I am an avid birdwatcher. It breaks my heart to think of the
toxins in the water affecting birds that live along the rivers and the
wetlands, like bald eagle, kingfishers, and wintering
ducks.
01 :04:07 The Atlantic Coast Pipeline has been routed along the I-95
corridor in such a way that it will disproportionately impact poor
people, people of color, and indigenous peoples.
The growing use of fracked gas is making the climate crisis
worse, because the leaks of methane, which is over 80 times more
powerful over a 20 -year range as in greenhouse gas and carbon
dioxide.
01 :04:32 I am tired of corporations doing what they please for profit
with not thought of the harm they are doing to the earth. There has
been too much destruction of land, air, and water quality as oil and
gas companies continue to destroy without consideration for
Mother Earth. The use of chemical and pollutants must stop. We
need a healthy planet, first, if people are going to have good health
and jobs.
01 :04:57 Instead of building more pipelines that aren't needed and
will lock us into more years of toxic fossil fuels, North Carolina
needs to encourage energy efficiency and clean renewables like
solar and wind. We need better transportation and bike lanes to get
cars off the road. By eating local, sustainably grown food, we
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder 1
Page 41
make a key shift away from fossil fuels. Those are the kinds of
jobs we need in North Carolina. [APPLAUSE]
01:05:29 [INDISCERNIBLE] instead of extracting and consuming,
instead of extracting and consuming, we need to preserve and
restore. We need to protect our water and serve our land. I believe
it is impossible to construct the ACP without harmful impacts to
water, wildlife, and human health.
I respectfully ask you not to grant the 401 permit for the
ACP. Thank you.
[APPLAUSE]
01:06:02 Wrenn: I will ask people please to hold your applause until the end so we
can make sure we have everyone's comments for the record.
Thank you.
Next speaker is Gary Brown.
Brown: Good evening. I'm Gary Brown, director of the Northampton
County Development Commission, here on behalf of the
Northampton County local government and the Northampton
County Board of Commissioners.
01:06:32 For several years, we have closely followed the
development of the Atlantic Coast Pipeline Project. Members of
the commission, staff, and others have attended numerous
meetings and workshops and have regularly engaged project
principles in furthering our understanding of the project.
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder 1
Page 42
Fundamentally, the Atlantic Coast Pipeline is intended to
meet the growing energy needs of public utilities in Virginia and
North Carolina. That's for cleaner electricity. Residential home
heating and power for local businesses and industry.
01 :07:09 That demand is very real and growing. From the onset, we
have noted that Dominion Power and the other project partners
have been very diligent in working to meet all regulatory
requirements, designing to minimize environmental impact,
cooperatively responding to all agency recommendations, and
organizing a remarkably complex project with great attention to
safe and secure operations.
We in Northampton County understand that there are
consequences resulting from any development, commercial,
industrial, residential, or farming.
01 :07:49 Our objective, as a local government, has been to manage
that development responsibly. We have gone about that by
assessing options through a prism of realism and practicality.
We've done that with the Atlantic Coast Pipeline project. If we in
America, and in this region, eliminate coal-fired power production,
we realistically need to develop alternative sources of energy.
Solar is good, but it doesn't work well at night. Hydro and
wind are also good, but building dams to flood more valleys is not
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder 1
Page 43
a very popular option, and, except right along our coast, the wind
sort of comes and goes, often with the wind.
01:08:38 Accordingly, the Economic Development Commission and
the Northampton County Planning Board have endorsed the
Atlantic Coast Pipeline project as a responsible and realistic
means—excuse me—for generating cleaner electricity and meeting
the growing energy demands in the region.
We thank you for the opportunity to visit with us today.
We thank you for visiting with us in this region. We urge your
consideration—and your favorable consideration—of the approval
of the Atlantic Coast Pipeline 401 certification. And thank you for
your consideration and your service.
[APPLAUSE]
01:09:24 Wrenn: The next speaker is Dr. Margaret [INDISCERNIBLE].
Good evening. My name is Margaret Sowerwine [ph]. I am a
retired physician from Rocky Mount. My concern is public health.
Thirty or 40 years ago, we discovered that burning coal to produce
electricity led to mercury vapor in our air, which then condensed
into droplets that ended up in our rivers and lakes.
Smokestacks were altered, and the plants produced less
mercury, but there is still enough mercury in our water that
physicians advise pregnant women in eastern North Carolina not to
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder 1
Page 44
eat fish caught locally due to possible central nervous system
damage to the baby.
01:10:27 About ten years ago, we realized that the coal ash from
these plants was a source of heavy metals and other toxins. After
the dam holding back a coal -ash pond broke in 2008, the effects of
these toxins on the human body were studied extensively.
Multiple organ systems including the liver, kidneys,
cardiovascular system and central nervous system were identified
as potentially vulnerable.
01:11:05 Determining safe levels of these poisons in our water is
difficult, because a single element can affect more than one organ
system, and the same target organ is often damaged by more than
one toxin. Plus, over time, our bodies can receive multiple doses
of a poison.
Now we're talking about adding another source of poison
to our water, one that has many of the same toxins found in coal
ash and some extra chemicals added during drilling.
01:11:41 How often could a leak happen? In eastern Pennsylvania, a
Delaware County safety committee analyzed the pipeline safety
record of a company proposing to build their 350 -mile Mariner
East II pipeline. The data suggested that these suburbs near
Philadelphia should expect a leak of some sort every seven and a
half years, along the county's 25 -mile stretch of the pipeline.
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder 1
Page 45
01:12:14 Let me repeat that. Every seven and a half years, they
could expect a leak along a 25 -mile stretch of pipeline. Nash
County is supposed to have 32 miles of the Atlantic Coast Pipeline.
North Carolina is supposed to have a total of 600 miles. How
often can we expect a leak?
Please, let's not add any more poisons to what we already
have in our water. Thank you.
[APPLAUSE]
01:12:54 Wrenn: The next speaker is Kim Piracci [ph].
Piracci: Hello. My name is Kim Piracci. I'm here as an individual. I
consider myself an environmental activist, although nobody pays
me to do that. There's been some talk about the environmental
impact and pollution. I understand fully that people that are
advocates for the pipeline or want to have the pipeline feel that this
one will be safe. It will be safe.
01:13:35 I just would like to ask people—have you ever heard of the
Titanic?
[LAUGHTER]
Piracci: What about the space shuttle, Challenger, Christa McAuliffe? And
then there, of course, was the Deepwater Horizon spill. I know
Flint, Michigan was mentioned earlier. How many of us our old
enough to remember Love Canal?
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder 1
Page 46
01:13:54 This isn't about if there will be pollution. This is about
when it will happen. There are 35 Superfund sites in North
Carolina. That is only those recorded before 2011, and it's only
the Superfund sites. It's the really big ones.
We don't need more pollution. Clean technology, talk to
me about that. That's where jobs are. That's all I got.
[APPLAUSE]
01:14:34 Wrenn: Our next speaker is Valerie Williams [ph].
Williams: Good afternoon. I am Valerie Williams with the Concerned
Stewards of Halifax County. We are stewards of all of God's
creation. I'm standing before you today as some voices for the
elderly and an advocate for humanity.
01:15:05 Williams: What has happened to my American dream? We live on a farm,
109 acres, purchased by my grandfather a century ago. Most of the
families affected by this pipeline are African-Americans on
century family farms. We are affected by this pipeline with
dreams of our own. But my dream is hindered. But I will not
allow it to stop us.
01:15:39 So if the Atlantic Coast Pipeline, LLC or any pipeline is
permitted to cross our waterways, then we neglect all the survivors
and sustain them guilty [ph] for now and our generations to come.
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder 1
Page 47
There are three reasons why. The permitting would affect a
disproportionately large impact on the African-American water
quality, 67% living along the pipeline route.
01:16:11 According to Dr. , AP manual [ph], Ph.D.
associate professor and university faculty scholar at North Carolina
State University, who is with the Department of Forestry and
Environmental Resources, analyzed some demographic
information for us.
Number two, the Atlantic Coast Pipeline has chosen, as its
route, the Appalachian cost [ph], also called the coastal plain
unconsolidated settlements [INDISCERNIBLE].
01:16:41 The Appalachian cost happened in our area because it's
where the Atlantic—where the Atlantic coast and the piedmont
meet.
Dr. Dan—Dr. Dandoctor, in his digital copy of cost to
the United States, shares information that when we look at the
limestone and other competent [ph] minerals accumulations
generally do not pose a risk, but when a different solution or
pathway is used, such as what I have seen with pipelines that are
recovering right now in our area.
01:17:27 And number three, we need to take a closer look of
protection that's listed on your site, sources of potential
groundwater contamination. It is stated there that with the
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder 1
Page 48
groundwater, once a contaminate, Let's say it's
reaches the groundwater, among other factors, such as size, form
[ph], and rate of movement, and it's hidden for several—from view
for several years. We are concerned not only about our surface
body of waters.
01:18:02 The concerns to us of Halifax County avidly asks that no
permitting be given since we are coastal with turbulent weather
conditions and already have personal effects [ph] on our properties.
It stated has been stated already that we all have basic needs. It's
traditional has been that we need food and water, shelter and
clothing. Without water, we cease to exist, and all living things,
with the limiting factors of this pipeline, would never be in our
environment anymore.
01:18:39 Dr. Dan, Dr. [INDISCERNIBLE]
Wrenn: [INDISCERNIBLE] your time is up. I appreciate you wanting to
share [INDISCERNIBLE].
Sowerwine: Okay. Okay. Thank you.
[APPLAUSE]
Sowerwine: Could I—could I just give my ending?
Wrenn: Is this—do you have a written comment on it?
Sowerwine: Yes.
Wrenn: That's—that's going to county just as much as your verbal
comment. It'll be in the record.
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder 1
Page 49
01:19:04 Sowerwine: Thank you.
Wrenn: Thank you.
[APPLAUSE]
Wrenn: Next is Stephen May [ph].
May: My name is Stephen May. I'm here today to speak in favor of the
Atlantic Coast Pipeline. As a resident of North Carolina and a
member of the Consumer Energy Alliance, I'm in favor of this
project because of the enormous economic benefit it can bring to
my home state.
01:19:37 Dominion Energy has thoroughly and carefully planned the
pipeline to maximize its benefits. Years of comprehensive studies
and surveys have resulted in a route that voids or minimizes
impacts to sensitive areas. Over 300 re-routes across this project
have been adopted to reduce the impact to environmental and
cultural resources. The streams and wetland -crossing techniques
employed, as well as the pipeline construction methods, meet both
the state and federal requirements designed to protect water
quality.
01:20:04 Furthermore, the project has reviewed each steam crossing
to ensure the chosen construction method is appropriate given the
site's specific characteristics. In fact, horizontal directional
drilling is being proposed in many locations to avoid impact to
major water bodies.
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder 1
Page 50
It is imperative to trust the extensive process that precedes
[ph] the ACP. FERC [ph] and other agencies have been carefully
analyzing potential impacts to land, air, and wildlife and other
resources to make sure the project has adopted all necessary
measures to protect the environment.
01:20:36 The ACP has provided over 100,000 pages of reports and
documents covering every aspect of the project. Additionally, the
project has had three years of review and input by various federal,
state, and local bodies. It is crucial that this necessary and safe
project avoids delay.
Natural gas is a clean, abundant, and reliable partner fuel to
renewables. The ACP is a vitally important infrastructure project
to our state's energy future.
01:21:06 Our region's public utilities need additional supplies of
natural gas to meet the growing energy needs of the millions of
consumers they serve in North Carolina. The natural-gas
transporter will be used to generate cleaner electricity to heat
homes and power industries. The jobs will—the jobs used—or the
jobs will create—will be created, including many in the
communities crossed by the pipeline's route.
Natural gas is a reliable complement for when the sun
doesn't shine and the wind isn't blowing. And produces far less
carbon emissions than coal.
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder 1
Page 51
01:21:39 Pipelines are the safest method to transport natural gas, and
operation of a pipeline will have no impact on state water sources.
The ACP will only transport natural gas, as opposed to oil. Natural
gas is not soluble in water and would not result in a spill, as
opponents of the project would suggest.
Therefore, I encourage the approval of the Atlantic Coast
Pipeline.
[APPLAUSE]
01:22:06 Wrenn: Our next speaker is Jamie Shannon [ph].
Shannon: Hi. My name is Jamie Shannon, and I'm here today to speak in
favor of the Atlantic Coast Pipeline. As a resident of North
Carolina, I'm in favor of this project because of the enormous
economic benefits it can bring to my home state.
01:22:31 Natural gas is the ideal energy source to partner with
renewable energy sources. Natural gas is clean burning, abundant,
and reliable. This abundant resource can be used to fuel economic
growth across North Carolina. The ACP is the final piece needed
to utilize this valuable resource.
Pipelines, such as the ACP, are the safest method that can
be used to transport natural gas. The ACP will only be—will only
be used to transport natural gas, as opposed to oil. Furthermore,
years of comprehensive studies have been performed and show
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder 1
Page 52
that ACP avoids any environmental impact to vulnerable areas
within the state.
01:23:06 ACP has provided over 100,000 pages of reports and
documentation detailing the project. Numerous federal, state, and
local bodies have reviewed the project to ensure that all
requirements have been met. This proposed pipeline is safe, and
it's extremely important to our state that any unnecessary delays
are avoided. Therefore, I encourage you to approve the Atlantic
Coast Pipeline. Thank you.
[APPLAUSE]
01:23:40 Wrenn: Our next speaker is Anne Schrader [ph].
Schrader: Thank you. I have six points this evening. Number one, Duke
Energy has not demonstrated a need for another massive methane -
leaking pipeline that would further contribute to global warming,
as well as long-term, unprecedented economic damage to North
Carolina.
01:24:13 I know this personally, because my family, and hundreds of
thousands of families across North Carolina, were decimated and
lost their homes, lives, businesses, and jobs last year from
hurricane Matthew, one of the worst and most expensive
environmental disasters in North Carolina history, and directly
related to the climate change these pipelines cause all over the
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder 1
Page 53
world. This pipeline will harm and further contribute to more
environmental disasters in our beloved state of North Carolina.
01:24:44 Two, Duke Energy has not demonstrated that it will not
harm the water quality of hundreds of wetland streams and rivers
that this toxic pipeline would dynamite, drill, and dig up. Duke
Energy cannot demonstrate they won't harm these precious
waterways, as the very nature of these pipelines leak toxic methane
and trap polluted, heated air into the atmosphere. These pipelines
explode and damage lives and property, and these pipelines leak
toxic, cancer-causing, irremediable, uncleanable chemicals into the
waterways as they so devastatingly do, every day, all over the
world.
01:25:19 Three. Duke Energy has demonstrated that it will harm,
and has already harmed, our precious waterways in our beloved
state by knowingly dumping coal ash into the historical Cape Fear
and Lumber rivers, where the citizens receive [ph] their drinking
water. Let that truth and reality sink in.
A good indication of a person or corporation's future
behavior is their past behavior. Look not to what Duke says but
what they have already done and will surely do again. Duke
Energy's actions speak louder than their words and permit
applications.
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder 1
Page 54
North Carolina's waterways, soil, and air is already being
overwhelmingly polluted and harmed by some of the largest
agricultural industries of hog, chicken, and cow waste in the
nation. Adding to this with the third-largest pipeline in the nation
would collectively push the citizen, environmental, and economic
well-being of our state to a tipping point beyond repair.
01:26:18 The ACP is bad for North Carolina's long-term economic
well-being. One of the construction—one year of construction
jobs is no way and no way better or even equal to 40 years of
unhealthy fossil -fuel dependence and rate increases; generational
property and business devaluation; human and animal harm and
medical costs; polluted, irremediable waterways and drinking
water; and toxic, unbreathable air.
01:26:45 And I'm going to skip down to this, because I'm so tired of
this. A side note to all the fossil -fuel lobbyists here, and let's be
crystal, crystal clear. Renewable energy is harvested. It is stored,
shared, and sold for profit, even when the sun goes down and the
wind doesn't blow. Okay? [APPLAUSE]
01:27:05 Denmark—Denmark wind turbines already [ph] are
generating more electricity than any other country than it even
consumes, and it exports their surplus to Germany, Norway, and
Sweden. Last year, Germany got 87% of its power from wind and
solar. I think we can do the same.
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder 1
Page 55
And as leaders in North Carolina, we are a leader in the
nation in healthy, job -producing renewable energy. It is harmful,
reckless, and insane to prevent this life-sustaining momentum by
blocking our beloved state into another 40 years of
environmentally degrading [ph] fossil -fuel dependency.
01:27:40 And finally, the very nature of our United States was
founded on independence—something Duke and the fossil -fuel
industry tout in their talking points. Yet these are the very
corporations keeping us, their customers, dependent upon them for
their unhealthy, pollution -causing fuel, and forcing us to pay for it
with our incomes to rate hikes, health, and well-being. How is that
the American way of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness?
[APPLAUSE]
01:28:13 Schrader: I ask you
Wrenn: [INDISCERNIBLE].
Schrader: I ask you to vote "no" for this toxic pipeline. Thank you.
[APPLAUSE]
[OVERLAPPINGINDISCERNIBLE]
01:28:39 Wrenn: Our next speaker is Tom Clark [ph].
Clark: It's almost hard to follow that. Hello. My name is Tom Clark.
I'm from Cumberland County. You might think I'm some long
ways from home, but my mom and dad always taught me, when
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder 1
Page 56
your friends and neighbors needed help, to be there. So we're
here.
F: Thank you.
01:29:00 Clark: What I got to say is about I've got a couple of articles from the
Belville [ph] newspaper. And evidently utility companies have
been keeping up with their own memos, because all this is mainly
about solar. But Duke and Dominion don't have the right to
destroy our water, no matter what. But it seems like here they are
planning on something with solar.
01:29:26 But it seems like a lot of people don't understand it, but it's
the people that's in the utility industry that don't understand their
own memos. "Utilities Moving to Community Solar" is the first
article, dated February 6, 2017. "Sunshine -capturing [ph]
technology has become so cheap, so quickly, that utilities are
moving to preserve their core business against competition from
household solar panels. Even though by big investor-owned
utilities operated as legal monopolies in many states, the bill -
lowering appeal of rooftop solar for many homeowners can
eventually threaten their ability to finance and manage their power
grids.
01:30:06 Charlotte -based Duke Energy, the largest electricity
company in the U.S., this year plans to launch a community -solar
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder 1
Page 57
program in South Carolina and seek regulatory permission to do
the same in North Carolina, Florida, Kentucky, Ohio, Indiana.
Utility vice president Melissa John [ph] stated, "Can I say
jobs, jobs, jobs?"
The second article is from the Fayetteville paper, dated July
the 16th, 2017. "Wind, Farm Pauses—Poses Dilemma for Cooper
and Energy Bill [ph]."
01:30:44 The legislation could make solar -power production more
competitive and less expensive for Charlotte -based Duke Energy
and its customers—which they're so concerned about.
I'll skip a couple. "Duke energy estimates that legislation
could result in $850 million in savings for customers over 10 years
as solar energy is purchased through a competitive procurement
process, and incentives are created to use and produce it. The
positive [ph] solar aspects of the bill are hard [ph] that Duke
Energy spokesman, Randy Wheels [ph] said in a statement.
01:31:21 And I'd just like to say, the rivers, the streams, and the
wetlands are part of us. That's our life. Don't let Duke Energy,
and Dominion, and the ACP take it away from us. And anybody
from the ACP that's here tonight, if you've got any questions, I'd
be glad to meet you in the back of the room and show you the
newspaper articles back here.
[LAUGHTER]
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder 1
Page 58
[APPLAUSE]
01:32:22 Wrenn: Our next speaker is Eric Miller [ph].
Miller: My name is Eric Miller. I'm a resident of Nash County. I have
three primary reasons that I'm opposed to the pipeline. First of all,
during the construction phase of the pipeline, it will disrupt every
major river in eastern North Carolina. Plus some 500 streams and
wetland areas. This will endanger the drinking water of well over
a million residents, plus all the habitat of fish, birds, and wildlife.
01:33:19 Second, every pipeline leaks. Period. Those leaks from the
ACP will endanger the environment in eastern North Carolina and
temporarily require residents to leave their homes, schools, and
places of work. That's not jobs. Plus, the leaks could result in
explosions, as we've read about around the country, that endanger
life and property.
01:33:55 Third, and finally, Duke wants its customers to pay for the
pipeline and fund a high rate of return. They wanted the same
thing with the coal cleanup, instead of the shareholders paying for
it, like they should.
In summary, I see the proposed Atlantic Coast Pipeline
creating numerous environmental problems and problems that are
going to come with serious financial penalties. Please vote "no"
and don't approve the pipeline. Thank you.
[APPLAUSE]
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder 1
Page 59
01:34:32 Wrenn: The next speaker is Betsy Hester [ph].
Hester: I'm Betsy Hester, resident of Nash County. And I just want to say
to those really lovely young people—stop drinking the Kool-Aid,
ya'll. [LAUGHTER]
My husband and I own two farms north of Rocky Mount,
both within the incineration zone of the pipeline. One nestled
between Big and Little Fishing Creek, and the other, our home, is
on Swift Creek. The pipeline not only invades every stream, creek,
river, and major wetland running through eastern North Carolina,
but it also run—it also runs through the most economically broken
areas of our state.
01:35:10 Promising jobs, jobs, jobs. And economic recovery. Tax
gains will be offset by a decline in property taxes, because the
property values will be negatively impacted, as evidenced by a
research group in 2011, that showed that we will have as much as
21% reduction in land values. The land -access easements granted
through eminent domain are not for public good but rather for
corporate gain and will negatively impact our environment forever.
01:35:40 My husband served as president of the Pamlico Tar River
Foundation, chair of the North Carolina Clean Water Management
Trust Fund, and was a member of the Coastal Federation, and he
served with distinction and was awarded the prestigious Order of
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder 1
Page 60
the Lone Pine for his lifetime commitment to clean water in North
Carolina.
While serving on PTRF, he earned a water quality
classification of outstanding resource water and nutrient -sensitive
water for Swift Creek, which is rich with many rare and
endangered species, of both flora and fauna.
01:36:09 In cooperation with the—with the North Carolina
Recreation and Heritage Trust, North Carolina Parks and
Recreation Natural Heritage Program, North Carolina State
Museum, North Carolina Wildlife Resource Commission for Non -
Game and Endangered Wildlife Program, and the North Carolina
Division of Environmental Management, they determined that the
Swift Creek sub -basin, home to ecologically significant
communities beyond rare plants, would be compromised by
alterations to the structure of these communities of flora and fauna.
It would eliminate them from the area.
01:36:36 The report stated the creek, itself, is important to the
continued survival of species of special concern. They
documented 459 species of reptiles, amphibians, terrestrial snails,
plus 14 species of mussels, 29 species of crayfish, 15 species of
rare aquatic insects along with brown owls, brown bats [ph], and
many species of warblers, wood ducks, and hawks.
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder 1
Page 61
They successfully had a long stretch of Swift Creek
classified protected. However, the classification stops at the
bridge. The pipeline will run just 500 yards down from that
bridge. And the ultimate goal was to get the remainder of Swift
Creek classified as a major tributary of the Tar River, as is
Fishing Creek.
01:37:15 Both sub -basins stretches from the piedmont to the coast
and are determined to be the most biologically diverse of all the
tributaries in North Carolina. The recommendation was that soil
disturbances should be avoided to the fullest extent possible, and
herbicides should be avoided. Both will occur and create
environmental disaster.
And I have a whole lot more to say. Thank you very much.
Please, please [INDISCERNIBLE].
01:37:39 [APPLAUSE]
Wrenn: Our next speaker is Erica Faircloth [ph].
Faircloth: Good evening. My name is Erica Faircloth, and I was born and
raised in eastern North Carolina, and I've lived in this state my
entire life. I work with Clean Water for North Carolina, a
statewide nonprofit. And I am a member of EcoRobeson, based in
Robeson County, and a standing representative for the Coalition of
Woodland Nations.
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder 1
Page 62
01:38:19 Today I will present comments to you on behalf of the
Coalition of Woodland Nations, a coalition of indigenous
individuals of over 28 tribes, including individuals from the
following North Carolina tribes, which will all be impacted by the
Atlantic Coast Pipeline. The Coharie, Haliwa-Saponi, Tuscarora,
Meherrin, and Lumbee [ph].
Before I read this statement, DEQ, I would like to tell you
that, on your website, I noticed that some of the wetlands that
would be impacted by the Atlantic Coast Pipeline in Robeson
County were not on there. So in my written comments that I will
go into detail later, I will send those to you with those wetlands
that are not included, for your review.
01:38:57 Here is the statement from CWM. North Carolina is home
to the largest population of indigenous peoples on the East Coast.
The Atlantic Coast Pipeline will run through the Chowan,
Roanoke, Tar -Pamlico, Neuse, and Cape Fear rivers and the
Lumber River basin. In eastern North Carolina, many American
Indian families rely on these streams, wetlands, rivers, and other
bodies of water to connect with their ancestral roots and also for
nourishment.
01:39:22 We catch fish to eat. We hunt deer that drink from these
bodies of water, to fill our freezers for the winter. Our people
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder 1
Page 63
depend on the wildlife and fish to be healthy, because, for some
families, that's the bulk of the protein they eat and survive from.
We canoe through these streams, collect medicinal plants
that grow in the wetlands, and we teach our children the ways of
those before us, and how important non -contaminated water is for
our survival.
01:39:47 When you plow through the wetlands of Robeson County,
you plow through an ecosystem that not only sustained our
ancestors but also protected them from murder and slavery. These
wetlands also protected Africans and runaway slaves during
colonization. These wetlands are the reason many indigenous
people survived and the reason our populations of indigenous
people in North Carolina can be so high today.
01:40:11 I'd like to read a couple of the indigenous nations on some
of these individuals in our coalition come from, of those five North
Carolina Tribes. I would also like to include the Waccamaw
Siouan [ph] in that. And, then, other tribes include the Monocan,
Mohawks, Sappony, Nautilus, Saponi-Catawba, Piscataway,
Conoy, Occoneechee, Cherokee, Shawnee, Chickasaw, Mohican,
Comanche, Creek, Pomo, Choctaw, Pamunkey, Sizemore, Upper
Flint River, Muskogee, Creek Tribe of Georgia [ph] and more.
01:40:45 On behalf of CWN, we would like to ask you, North
Carolina DEQ, please oppose this project. Thank you.
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder 1
Page 64
[APPLAUSE]
Wrenn: Our next speaker is Oshin Paranjape.
Paranjape: Hello. My name is Oshin, and I will be commenting on the water
quality impact to the pipeline on the behalf of Clean Water for
North Carolina.
01:41:21 In recent additional information documents filed by the
ACP [ph], Dominion states that they did not identify any
individual waters or watershed which have been designated as
water supply one, two, or high-quality waters. Waters supply one
and two are waters that are used primarily for drinking purposes
and require maximum protection [ph] standards. They are
automatically categorized as high-quality waters because of their
excellent physical, chemical, and biological characteristics.
01:41:50 It was found that the ACP crosses these water bodies at
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com
multiple locations. In addition, the pipeline also crosses the
nutrient -sensitive waters in the Neuse and Tar -Pamlico river
basins. This classification is for water bodies which have high
concentration of nutrients, like phosphorous and nitrogen, and
having excessively high growth of microorganisms like algae.
Additionally, we have a
of 12 federally
listed endangered and threatened species and six species which are
currently under federal review for listing, and I think granted

01 :42:34
01 :43:06
01 :43:40
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com
NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder 1
Page 65
endangered status or special concern status by state legislature will
be crossed [ph] by the ACP.
Many of these species, such as the Neuse River waterlog
the Neuse River basin, which, in addition to being
nutrient -sensitive, will be—will have the [INDISCERNIBLE]
constructed with the open government [ph] which is
highly invasive. And as mentioned in the draft environmental
impact statement, will have significant environmental impacts, like
turbidity, sedimentation, decreased concentration of dissolved
oxygen.
The horizontal directional drilling method, which has been
touted as a safe method for construction of the pipeline, has issues
of its own. Studies have shown that inadvertent returns [ph] which
occur when the base drilling fluid seeps through the
fractures in the upper horizons [ph] of the soil are an inherent risk
during HDD [ph] crossings. And this has already occurred
[INDISCERNIBLE] in Ohio very recently.
The inadvertent returns also occur more frequently during
creek and river crossings and by planes with
diameters of 22 inches or more, and some of the environmental
impact associated with them are smoldering [ph] of vegetation,
decreased vegetation sustainability, destruction of breeding areas,

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder 1
Page 66
decreased oxygen availability leading to asphyxiation, diminishing
lung storage [ph] capacity.
01:43:40 Moreover, the mitigation plans proposed by ACP to
address most of these issues are either inadequate or nonexistent,
and we stand in opposition to the 401 permit being granted to the
pipeline. Thank you.
[APPLAUSE]
Wrenn: Our next speaker is Therese Vick [ph].
Vick: Good evening. I'm here representing the Blue Ridge
Environmental Defense League, which, and it has been my
privilege and pleasure to meet so many and work with so many of
the folks from these potentially impacted communities that are
here tonight. And you have given such powerful comments, I
don't really know if I need to say anything else.
01:45:07 I will—the Blue Ridge Environmental Defense League
hopes that the DEQ will deny the 401 certification. There are
numerous reasons, but I will talk about something that just recently
happened on another pipeline. It's a brand-new pipeline. It's not
an old one.
The Mariner 2 Pipeline, on July the 19th, spilled 1,500
gallons of drilling mud. It reached a nearby creek. This is only
one of the 60 -plus such spills that have occurred with the
construction of this brand -spanking -new pipeline since April 251h
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder 1
Page 67
2017. This pipeline is only 20 inches around. Some of it's only 16
inches in diameter.
01:46:00 Another thing happened with this little pipeline. Earlier
this month, horizontal drilling—which you had the lovely picture
of there—you mentioned that all the water bodies would be
crossed by horizontal drilling. I found that fascinating.
Horizontal drilling intruded into an aquifer. Fifteen
homeowners' wells were impacted. Some ran dry. Some were
contaminated. They had to put folks up in hotel rooms because
they can't even use their showers.
01:46:29 So we're not this is not little impacts. These are not
these are serious possibilities.
The other thing I wanted to mention is that Duke Energy
and its ACP partners, including Dominion—Dominion's no better
than Duke—we just hear about Duke in North Carolina because we
got a long history with Duke—are creating rural sacrifice zones
[ph] with this pipeline. They are using people's property, using
their livelihoods, putting them in danger—for their profit. And
that's it. That's it—for their profit.
01:47:05 And it's unconscionable. It should not be allowed. It
would have devastating impacts on local communities, devastating
impacts on the economy and on the environment.
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder 1
Page 68
I will say one more, small thing. I am a firefighter's ex-
wife, but I was a firefighter's wife for 38 years. My son is a fire
chief of a volunteer fire department. I was an EMT. You know
what they do when they have a pipeline explosion? They secure
the perimeter and evacuate, and sit there and wait until somebody
from—maybe from out of state—comes and takes care of it.
01:47:47 And that's what you're doing to rural communities. Thank
you.
[APPLAUSE]
Wrenn: [INDISCERNIBLE].
F: Did you say Michael Geroni [ph]?
Wrenn: Yes.
01:48:24 Hello. I'm Michael Geroni [ph] from Jedediah [ph]. And I'm here
because we're going to destroy some of the resources in North
Carolina with the Atlantic Coast Pipeline, which I sincerely
oppose. The ACP is not needed, and it is not in the public interest.
Since Governor Cooper has joined me, we are still in
movement in support of the Paris Climate Accord. The only
choice in North Carolina must be renewable energy. How can you
bring in natural gas? Natural [ph] pipeline because of climate
change.
01:49:03 Natural gas is 86 times more potent than carbon dioxide as
a greenhouse warming gas, and global warming is so powerful and
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder 1
Page 69
damaging must be considered. Every step of gas development
releases methane. Pipelines release methane. Cleaning [ph]
pipelines. Brakes and pipelines.
It is a tragic for natural gas, the clean fuel or
sustainable or better than coal. No, it is none of these.
01:49:42 So no development of this pipeline in the coastal plain.
Why? Global warming. Remember hurricane Matthew, hurricane
Floyd? We had huge, regular coastal floods. Also, there must be
rapid response by the pipeline construction company to stabilize
the pipeline on site in advance of storms and hurricanes.
You can't leave eight -inch [ph] trenches exposed for
months, even weeks, when one of these hurricanes is coming.
01:50:11 That includes regular rain events, not just big ones. In
planning, you must prevent and reduce erosion.
Secondarily, I oppose the ACP for its impact on water,
water and soil, water and wildlife, water and ecosystems. Let's
look at drilling, blasting wetlands and groundwater. I think I can
predict, with drilling—drilling lines [ph] must be tested for diesel
and BTX [ph]. Any added chemicals besides bentonite [ph] must
be disclosed to DEQ, and no proprietary chemicals can be used.
01:50:43 Drilling by disposal must be very specifically go to solid -
waste landfills. It turns up in roads, it turns up in clays, and in the
holes in the ground. Okay, blasting. Blasting chemicals must be
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder 1
Page 70
disclosed to DEQ. Wetlandsa good deal of logical [ph]
information to prevent groundwater contamination and disruption
of wetland water flow. We had to protect the soil compaction. No
fuels within 500 feet of wetlands.
01:51:16 Cessation of work in spills in wetlands. Immediate clean-
up. Fir—in—after any kind of construction, monitoring of
wetlands and stream buffers. I know I'm getting to the end of my
time. I wanted to say one more thing, though.
I think it's fairly important to realize that Duke Energy will
not work well with North Carolina DEQ. If there is a spill or
problems that delay the ACP that might be costly, Duke Energy
will delay, blame [INDISCERNIBLE] call the fells to help by the
North Carolina General Assembly threaten everyone [ph].
01:51:50 They have left countless North Carolinians without safe
drinking water and property damage from their huge pollution
from coal -ash waste pits. Why would Duke Energy behave
differently if the ACP has pollution problems? They won't.
[APPLAUSE]
Wrenn: The next speaker is Angela Hawkins [ph].
Hawkins: Hi. My name is Angela Hawkins, and I'm a resident of North
Carolina, and I support the ACP. The ACP is vital to North
Carolina's energy future. In order to keep North Carolina's
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder 1
Page 71
economy strong, we must take full advantage of the benefits of
natural gas. Natural gas is cheap, reliable, and clean burning.
01:52:51 With proper infrastructure, natural gas will lead to the
creation of jobs across the state of North Carolina. Opponents
claims that the ACP is a danger to North Carolina's waterways.
This is categorically false.
I would like to point out that thousands and thousands of
pages of reports have been provided detailing the chosen pipeline
route, explaining in detail why specific areas were chosen and how
all environmental risks have been mitigated.
01:53:21 Dominion Energy has complied with all local, state, and
federal regulations.
Second, this is a natural-gas pipeline. Natural gas is not
soluble in water. This is not an oil pipeline. Therefore, there is
zero chance of an oil spill.
I urge the board to approve the ACP. Thank you.
F: [INDISCERNIBLE].
[APPLAUSE]
Wrenn: Our next speaker is Greta Ruggerio [ph].
01:54:14 Ruggerio: Hi, everyone. Greta Ruggerio from Wake County. And I'm here
as a proud supporter of ACP. I have to tell you, I'm listening to
comments all the time. Pipelines criss cross this country, all over
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder 1
Page 72
the place, and, thankfully, have not been terrible disasters or
I come from the most polluted state in the country, New
Jersey. There's pollution all over the place, and there's no
pipelines causing it. It's people. It's chemical plants. It's
everything. It's called progress.
01:54:49 We can't go back 200 years because anybody who's
snickering would not want to live with that air conditioning, 100
degrees today. TV and for that, Bones [ph]. Even poor people.
They're impacted by that, too, because they also have those items.
Most. We're not worried about causing danger to fish, because
I'm sure that ACB P—are going to be good stewards of the
environment, because they're under the light of DEQ.
Everybody's got an eye on them.
01:55:23 And, unfortunately, fossil fuels have to provide for the
economy. That's the way it is. God forbid there's a disaster for a
hospital, they're out of power. What happens? Everybody dies.
You need this. So it's going to grow our economy, and you cannot
just depend on solar energy or on wind power, which also kills
birds, because they're all over Atlantic City, and nobody wants
them there, where they live, either. And this is the same argument
all the time.
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder 1
Page 73
01:55:54 But the cars are polluting the country everywhere you go.
Nobody says anything. You can't drive cars. But you want to try
and do something, and it certainly will provide jobs. And however
many people there are that get those jobs, they'll be very happy to
have them, and maybe, hopefully, some of these rural communities
will learn to have some prosperity now, because of this. They have
to prosper from jobs.
So harm will only come to the citizens of North Carolina if
this project is unnecessarily delayed, and I ask you to please
approve it. Thank you very much.
01:56:28 [APPLAUSE]
Wrenn: Our next speaker is Jane Flowers Finch.
Finch: My name is Jane Flowers Finch. I'm from Wake County. I'm an
attorney in Raleigh. I grew up in Nash County. My 89 -year-old
mother is sitting here. She lives in Nash County. She has a farm
in Wilson County that is going to be significantly impacted by the
Atlantic Coast Pipeline.
01:57:01 Water is absolutely necessary for human life. Gas is not
absolutely necessary. It is predicted that 20 years from now, the
biggest issue we're going to be facing is adequate, clean water for
mankind on the earth.
The City of Wilson needed water and, in 1970, decided to
build a reservoir in Buckhorn [ph]. In doing that, they took my
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder 1
Page 74
mother's farm and built a dam on it. And then, years later that
was in 1975—they came back again, and they had to build another
dam. And they took some more of her farm. She's lost half her
farm, almost, to the City of Wilson for Buckhorn,
01:57:41 And then, in 2000, the City of Wilson came back again
and this is very important on the water quality issue. They took a
300 -foot buffer, from the dam to Highway 581, under the federal
Clean Water Act, to prevent us from developing it and prevent
pollution [INDISCERNIBLE]. And they took it on the other side
from the other people. And they took it from everybody down
Contentnea Creek down to the City of Wilson.
01:58:05 And now, here, in 2017, you want to put a pipeline through
the Contentnea Creek. It's not right, it's wrong for us to have
property taken by eminent domain to keep clean water, and then to
put a pipeline there.
All gas pipelines leak. We know that. It will pollute the
water. Dr. Hoffman [ph] has researched that and gone over it
many times.
This is very long. What's significant is my brother [ph].
01:58:36 Fifteen years ago, my brother wrote an article for Wildlife
in North Carolina that was published, and he was a state forester,
and he knew Contentnea Creek and the Tar River and Nash
County. He showed me the [INDISCERNIBLE] he wrote this
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder 1
Page 75
article in Wildlife in North Carolina, and he was an
environmentalist early on. He said the seeds of industry once sunk
[ph] can fall and be rebuilt, but that when the seeds of nature are
destroyed, nothing is ever the same.
01:59:09 His ashes are on the Contentnea Creek bank in Wilson
County, and the Tar River banks in Nash County. That's where he
requested to be. Mr. Tom Bass [ph] [INDISCERNIBLE]. I don't
know if anyone believe, but I'm going to correct him on one thing.
He said this was going to bring jobs. I work with Tom Bass
[INDISCERNIBLE] part ways with partnership [ph]. When they
go [INDISCERNIBLE] in Nash County and the county put
incentives in there for them to bring the Universal [ph] there and
they were going to have 1,300 jobs.
Ladies and gentlemen, Universal League has never had half
that many jobs, so if anybody wants to talk about jobs, this is a lot
of bluff. It's a lot of bluff. Please do not approve this.
[APPLAUSE]
01:59:57 Wrenn: Our next speaker is [INDISCERNIBLE] Flowers.
Flowers: Hello. I want to thank you for being here. I want to thank North
Carolina for being my state. I'm not here about me. I'm here
about you and the citizens of North Carolina and of Nash County
and along this pipeline.
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder 1
Page 76
What you don't know is that—well, my daughter just told
you. I've been the victim of eminent domain [ph] five times. And
now they're about to do six times.
02:00:47 But this time, it's for profit. I don't like it at all. But what
you don't think about—what I want you to go back and tell your
family, your neighbors, and everybody you know. Those pipelines
are forever. They are forever. That 42 -inch pipeline is for another
Contentnea Creek, another Tar River. It's going to be there
forever, forever.
And according to the research, it does have leakage. They
will tell you that it doesn't. I've seen the people walk around in
jobs, jobs, jobs. If you paid [INDISCERNIBLE] how is that going
to help jobs? You've got to have that gas coming in. Get your
money together and get a
02:01:39 We've talked about it. It just doesn't happen. But
remember, those pipelines corrode. And they have leakage. Do
the research. Do the research. Five to 15% of the natural leakage
is going to recur, and you can put your dollar on that.
[LAUGHTER]
Now, 20 years from now, do you think those pipelines are
going to hold up? What's going to happen when your
grandchildren all get sick? You don't know what's happening.
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder I
Page 77
When you get sick, I won't be here to see it. That's why I'm
fighting so hard.
02:02:12 Because it's not right. I'm not worried so much about the
little bit of land they're going to take from me. I can lose that. I'm
worried about the long-range impact that it's going to have on the
people who—it just makes me sick to hear them say there's no
danger. Oh, my God. They have told us over and over, it don't
leak. It doesn't leak. It does leak. Everything leaks. Pipes
corrode. And they go under your Tar River.
Go home and tell your neighbors that they better get out
and fight past this thing [ph] because they going to get some bad
water one day. Thank you.
[APPLAUSE]
02:03:05 Wrenn: Our next speaker is Steven Norris [ph].
Norris: Hello, and thank you for coming. My name is Steven Norris. I
work with two organizations, the Alliance to Protect the People
and Places Where We Live, which is a North Carolina
organization, and Beyond Extreme Energy, which is a national
organization, which has done significant work at the Federal
Energy Regulatory Commission.
I am was really impressed, early on, when you talked
about the responsibilities of the Department of Environmental
Quality in regard to this water permit. The word that jumped out at
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder 1
Page 78
me was degradation. My understanding of your responsibility, or
one of your primary responsibilities, was to answer the question,
"Does this pipeline degrade water quality in North Carolina?"
02:04:09 From the testimony we have heard from these wonderful
people tonight, except for the few supporters of the pipeline who
were here, from the testimony, and it's repeated. We have lots of
facts. We have lots of science. We have lots of information.
There's absolutely no question, in hardly anyone's mind, that this
is going to degrade the quality of water in North Carolina.
It seems to me that your job is made very, very easy. Now,
I'm not an attorney. I'm not a bureaucrat. I'm not a regulator. I
don't know how these decisions are made. But in my mind, just
common sense says to me that if there is this much evidence of
degradation of water quality as we have heard here tonight, as is
written in very substantial documentation that people can
provide people have provided—there's no way this can be
approved, unless something else is going on behind the scenes.
02:05:11 We do know, of course, that Dominion is putting
Dominion and Duke—both are putting enormous, full -bore
pressure on both regulators and on the governor and on politicians,
on all the public officials, and so on, in North Carolina, and they
have the money to back it up.
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder I
Page 79
We the people, we the people, who are here, don't have that
kind of money. We do not have money to throw around. We do
not have money to give to community groups, and so on.
02:05:47 What we do have—we have the truth. What we have heard
tonight is the truth. We hope, we pray, we beg you to listen to the
truth, because the truth is that there's no way this pipeline—and
even the proponents of the pipeline have not said anything to say
that the pipeline—that the pipeline will do something to protect the
water really, that it will—that it will work against the degrading of
water. They talk about mitigation. They talk about all the possible
ways, perhaps, that the pipeline process will not degrade water.
02:06:20 But nobody can make the promises, because pipelines leak.
Water is life. Protect the people. Do not let this—do not let this
certification go through. Thank you.
[APPLAUSE]
Wrenn: Our next speaker is June Wollett [ph].
Wollett: My name is June [ph]. I'm from Halifax County. I'm opposed to
the permit for the pipeline. I'm a member of Sierra Club of the
five -county region, the Medoc [ph] group.
02:07:09 Also, I'm on the advisory board for the Medoc Mount State
Park [ph], and also Friends of the Parks group [ph].
We meet once a month with Sierra Club, and we have
different presenters every month. And our idea is to encourage
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder I
Page 80
critical thinking, clear thinking, and sustainability of our
environment. We have speakers talk about water issues, green
buildings, community gardens, and that's what we need to focus
on. Renewable energy, sustainability. Decentralize corporations.
For example, solar energy, local grid. Solar grids, to make it more
sustainable for communities.
02:08:08 As opposed to Duke, which opposes groups to sell solar
power.
Also, like, look at the weather conditions like today. The
extreme weather conditions. Like NC WARN [ph] has said that
the methane being released is causing extreme heat, more heat in
the environment. Also think about the sea level rising, the
permafrost melting, which is going to release methane
expeditiously, to an extreme [ph].
02:08:47 And we need to think about it. And right now, a lot of
politicians are discouraging science. There's science objectivity.
They're researching how science affects our lives, so that's, you
know. Our sense of community, people doing things together, like,
as I said, community gardens and solar energy on the homes and
buildings and so forth.
So I hope you oppose—reject this populace [ph] permit for
the pipeline. Thank you.
[APPLAUSE]
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder 1
Page 81
02:09:41 Wrenn: The next speaker is Sue Ellen Johnson.
Johnson: My name is Sue Ellen Johnson. I'm from Wake County. I
appreciate this civil process. I had the opportunity and only
property [ph] with a dual -gas pipeline for 14 years, with a house
nearby. This was in another state, but I feel some familiarity with
it. I think the comments I wanted to add to all of the very
interesting statements made this evening, and I appreciate your
patience in listening to everyone.
When I read what's going on and keep up with it through
my work as an agricultural ecologist, I'm very much aware that
there is a lot of pollution issues in our waterways, already. These
are under the purview of DEQ and its processes, and precedents of
how we work with both industry and the regulatory system.
02:10:35 And I'm not sure that anyone in DEQ would argue that the
waters of the Neuse or the Cape Fear are in pristine condition or in
undegraded condition at this time. And I guess if you would say,
look at how this pipeline is coming through, it is correct that there
are going to be emissions from the line. There are at least potential
disasters.
In our small community, when we had pipelines, the
woman who made the reference to the volunteer firemen, that is
exactly correct. The strategy was get everybody out. We started to
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder 1
Page 82
have an incident and wait for reinforcements to come in from a
long distance away, which would exacerbate the damage.
02:11:17 But I guess I would mostly say, as an agency, and looking
at the water resources criteria, I think there are really clear flaws in
the situation that is being presented. The documentation
thousands of pages don't necessarily mean that the assumptions
underlying those pages are correct for the 21" century. As a
scientist, I can craft that for you, if you need me to.
And I think the other piece is, can you stack up the current
issues that you already face in managing water quality throughout
the state, coming into this region, with additional pollution issues
and risks that will be coming on? I thought, I'm pretty good at
judging my time.
02:12:03 But I just hope I'm making that point. I know you will
have it when your colleagues are doing your best in a difficult
political environment that you operate in, and regulatory issues are
real. But I think you want to be very careful right now. We have
many incidents that you are aware of, not the least of which is the
Dan River [ph] incident, which is, basically, a failure of the
regulatory system, as well as the industry in the state. Thanks.
[APPLAUSE]
02:12:33 Wrenn: Our next speaker is Katherine Davison -York [ph].
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder I
Page 83
D -York: Hello. My name is Katherine Davison -York. Thank you for
giving us this opportunity to come and discuss—share our
concerns with you.
F: Can you speak up?
D -York: Really? I can hear myself Duh, duh, duh.
I followed the Standing Rock Sioux [ph] tribe last year,
very closely. They fought a valiant fight against a corporation that
was putting a pipeline in for profit, and they were telling all sorts
of lies about how many jobs it would bring and how it would
benefit North Dakota community.
02:13:32 That was a lie. That oil was intended to go to China, for
profit. The same sort of thing is happening here in North Carolina.
The Duke Energy, or Dominion, they are building an overcapacity,
according to the utility people. And they plan to build power
stations that don't exist yet in order to meet the capacity of gas that
they're putting the lines in for [ph]. We're destroying our planet,
and we can't depend on the corporations to protect the
environment. We need to move away from fossil fuels. There are
many explosions from gas lines. In the last few years, there have
been 500 deaths, 4,000 injuries, and $7 billion worth of property
damage as a result of explosions.
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder I
Page 84
02:14:31 We could have used that money for very different things.
Dominion might think that that property repair would be jobs, but
those are not the sort of jobs that we're looking for.
We can't rely on these corporations to protect our
environment. They only protect their shareholders. They're
asking for an enormous return on their money.
This pipeline crosses many waterways and impacts,
disproportionately, indigenous and poor, underprivileged people.
Please do not approve this pipeline.
[APPLAUSE]
02:15:17 Wrenn: The next speaker is Harvey Richmond [ph].
Richmond: Good evening. My name is Harvey Richmond. I live in Cary, in
Wake County. I'm a volunteer leader with the Capital Group of
the Sierra Club. I'm a former senior environmental analyst with
the U.S. EPA. My comments, however, today are my own and do
not represent either organization.
I've made the trip here this evening for several reasons.
First, maintaining clean water in our state is important to all North
Carolinians, not just those in the immediate path of this pipeline.
On a personal note, I have relatives who live in Kinston,
New Bern, Rocky Mount and would be impacted if the Neuse
River or other rivers would be contaminated by a spill or explosion
along the pipeline or out.
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder I
Page 85
02:15:57 Their source of drinking water could be impacted as well as
the ability of my relatives who enjoy fishing in eastern North
Carolina to fish the streams and rivers downstream from the
pipeline route.
Second, I'm concerned that this pipeline's direct and most
immediate impacts will fall disproportionately on low-income and
rural communities, communities of color, and native American
communities, raising environmental -justice issues.
We know from hurricanes Matthew and Floyd that eastern
North Carolina is under the threat of severe flooding along much
of the path of the proposed pipeline. Pipeline leaks or breakage
during a flooding event would lead to widespread contamination of
land and water along the pipeline route and also impact
downstream communities, many of which are rural and low-
income.
02:16:38 Third, while Duke and Dominion Energy are now partners
with the pipeline developers and will ask great payers [ph] to pay
for the $5 billion for the cost of this pipeline, neither has
convincingly shown that the pipeline is really needed in North
Carolina. ACP's claim that population growth in North Carolina
grew from 2000 to 2030 as a basis to expect growth in demand is
not supported. Despite significant population growth over the last
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder 1
Page 86
17 years, overall demand for electricity has remained relatively
flat.
Money invested in energy conservation, solar, wind, other
forms of renewable energy can meet a realistic forecast for energy
demand over the coming decade.
02:17:16 Duke and Dominion Energy are running ads, saying they
are supports of renewable energy, but behind the scenes, they're
pushing policies that limit the development of renewable energy
sources and instead encourage the use of more natural gas.
You and I and across our state [ph] will be
asked to fund this boondoggle through higher electricity rates, even
if the pipeline is underutilized. As reported in the LA Times on
July 14th, Norman Bay [ph], the outgoing chief of the Federal
Energy Regulatory Commission, which oversees pipeline
permitting, surprised the gas industry and activists by cautioning
that the approval process for gas pipelines was full of
shortcomings, creating a risk of overbuilding.
02:17:54 In a six-page essay, filed as a part of a commission
proceeding, Bay, long an ally of the gas industry, opined that
regulators are not paying enough attention to legitimate concerns
about the long-term viability of these projects, their impact on
global warming, and the hardship they can cause for communities
along their routes.
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder 1
Page 87
In conclusion, I believe it's impossible to construct the
ACP without adverse impacts to streams, rivers, wetlands, aquatic
life, human health, environmental justice, and our climate.
I ask the Division of Water Resources to enforce the federal
Clean Water Quality Act requirements, to protect our state's water,
and to not grant a 401 permit. Thank you.
[APPLAUSE]
02:18:42 Wrenn: Our next speaker is Maura Frank [ph].
Frank: Hi. I'm bothered by the proposed ACP because of ongoing threats
to NC's water quality and of the health of marine and fish
resources that our state already faces. My husband and I own a
home on the Neuse River, by Camp Seagull—very close to Camp
Seagull. We enjoy our time on the water very much. I brought a
photograph of our 13 -year-old son, on our fishing boat, enjoying
time on the water on the Neuse River.
I'd like to provide that to you.
My husband is an avid fisherman, and we're really
concerned about the impact of the ACP on all of the state's
waterways, particularly the negative impact on recreational fishing
and fish and marine wildlife.
02:19:54 I ask the DEQ to reject this proposed pipeline for the health
of our rivers, for the health of our fish and marine life, and so that
North Carolina can encourage and benefit from increased
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder I
Page 88
development of clean, renewable energy sources which already
have and will continue to bring good, new economy jobs and great
economic benefit to our state.
Solar and wind power are burgeoning industries in North
Carolina, and claims that I've heard that solar can't provide power
at night are simply untrue. There've been several recent,
significant advances in large-scale battery and flywheel storage
technology that have proven very effective at harvesting solar
energy during the day and efficiently delivering it at night, and
these storage technologies are already in use.
02:20:43 At the beginning of this hearing, I was bothered by the
statement during the petitioner's presentation that horizontal,
directional drilling would be performed for installing the ACP
under all rivers, except for the Neuse. So that really piqued my
interest because I own a home on the Neuse River. We enjoy
fishing. We enjoy recreational use of that waterway, and we're
really concerned about impacts from the ACP development on the
Neuse River, in particular.
you.
[APPLAUSE]
So again, I ask that the DEQ reject this pipeline. Thank
Wrenn: [INDISCERNIBLE].
Frank: [INDISCERNIBLE].
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder I
Page 89
02:21:24 Wrenn: Thank you.
[APPLAUSE]
Wrenn: Our next speaker is Barbara Fitzgerald [ph].
Fitzgerald: Hello. My name is Barbara Fitzgerald. I'm originally from New
England, but I've been in North Carolina about six and a half
years, and I live in Raleigh.
I was lucky to grow up in the country, you know, farms,
and horse, and rivers. And we had a fabulous playground growing
up, and I so enjoyed that. And I like to think that my roots are in
nature.
I'm here to speak about my concerns about the ACP and
hoping that it echoes the concerns of others, whether it's West
Virginia, Virginia, or North Carolina. I do not support the ACP
pipeline for many reasons. I'll just go over, maybe, just four of
them today.
02:22:24 The whole process of fracked gas is just an abomination
and very destructive to the environment [ph], so why bring it to
North Carolina? The chemicals pumped into the ground poison the
water tables for all the life that needs water.
I Googled "pipeline accidents" and Wikipedia came up.
They've been tracking pipeline accidents since 2000. And I did
readjust one page of the accidents that have occurred in the United
States since 2017 pipeline accidents, of course.
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder 1
Page 90
There've been hundreds of spills in the United States over
the years. And they impact the drinking water and the risk you
know, simple waters, besides private waters.
02:23:17 Now, the otherI'm not confident that the ACP project has
a quality -control system that's focused on preventing leaks, spills,
and environmental damage from day one to 10, 20, 30 years out. I
don't think their focus is on that area.
The pipes are going to age. Who will be taking care of
them? I'm not confident that any of the participating parties can
successfully manage, monitor, repair, or compensate the people
and lands that are damaged by this—not that they don't want to,
but people are pretty stretched. I'm sure you can agree to that.
That this project will require the forest clearing, blasting
through bedrock, and excavation through and under streams—the
degradation of water habitat and water resources, sedimentation
it just seems impossible that there will not be degradation. It's
really just common sense.
02:24:18 Now, I know that most of you probably driven on the road,
on the highway, and the big trucks going by and by, and they
irritate you, and they scare you. And I was driving, the other day,
and there was one truck that had the sign on the back of it that said,
"Don't like trucks? Stop buying stuff" And I was, like, whoa.
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder I
Page 91
And so, I'm saying, "I don't like fracked gas, and I don't
like pipelines, so please, stop the popline—stop the pipeline."
Invest in wind, solar, discovering new ways of energy and ways to
make it energy efficient. That's a better use of your time. Thank
you very much.
[APPLAUSE]
02:25:05 Wrenn: The next speaker is Christy Etheridge [ph].
Etheridge: Whew. I don't like microphones [ph], but I'm just going to do this
anyway. My name is Christy Etheridge. I'm a representative of
our Mother Earth and Our Children Are Our Future. My mother
was a teacher for 30 years, so it's ingrained in me to love children.
My home and my mother's farm is located approximately
3,500 feet from the projection of this pipeline. I want to thank you,
again, for coming tonight, to our beautiful community college that
we stand here in.
02:25:42 We stand here in a facility that teaches children, one being
my son that is also an Eagle Scout, to go out and conquer the world
and become someone. Well, we have to be stewards of the earth,
to leave no trace, in order to do that. And stand up for what's right
by rejecting these permits to allow this pipeline to be built.
James Michener said, "An age is called dark not because
the light fails to shine but because people refuse to see it."
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder 1
Page 92
I could talk for hours on the negative impact of this
pipeline, but you're only giving me about four minutes, so I shall
begin. Pipeline construction and maintenance can have
detrimental impacts on wildlife through habitat loss and
fragmentation. Nearly 600 acres of forested wetland would be
cleared for construction, which probably by way of eminent
domain, would take at least 30 years to regrow.
02:26:38 The last I checked, we need trees to breathe and clean water
to drink. We all should know by now that clean water is life. By
saying yes to these programs also waves the flag around big energy
to keep us relying on fossil fuels. And through my research,
renewable energy is the direction we should be going for our
future.
I recommend reading Tony Seba's Clean Disruption of
Energy and Transportation. I actually just bought it today. I only
read the first chapter, but I highly recommend you do it. This
meeting has made me research and learn a lot.
02:27:18 Natural gas is methane, which is 85 times stronger at
trapping the atmosphere in carbon dioxide, which, in turn, gets us
closer to the ocean at our front door.
Between 2010 and 2015, 12.8 cubic feet of methane leaked
from natural gas pipelines nationwide, not to mention 16
explosions, just in 2017. The projected diameter of this pipe was
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder I
Page 93
to be 36 inches. The potential impact radius, also called the blast
zone. If this bomb was to explode, it's 943 feet. Dominion is
saying it's 660 feet.
We shouldn't be looking into expanding energy through
fossil fuels at all. It is a detriment to our future. Thank you for
your time, and please keep North Carolina, and America, clean.
Thank you.
[APPLAUSE]
02:28:13 Wrenn: [INDISCERNIBLE].
Wagner: Good evening. My name is John Wagner [ph], and there have
been some comments about the thousands of pages that Duke and
Dominion put together to prove how safe they are, and I want to
address some of the distortions and the weird uses of words that
they have.
I started this two days ago and talking to you about three.
The word "significant" they seem to always precede or pair it with
the word "not," no matter how important the crisis is that they're
discussion. It's always "not significant."
02:29:00 Secondly, the word "cumulative," which is an extremely
important word. You're cutting a gash from the Virginia border all
the way to Robeson County. That's a cumulative effect, and that
word almost never appears.
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder I
Page 94
Third, the word "temporary." I'm going to return to that
today, because temporary is a word that they really misuse. First
of all, anything that affects a family or a community lifelong can
never be called temporary. So when you destroy the water of a
community, it's not a temporary effect.
02:29:48 Secondly, pipelines are going to be running, if this is
approved, all the way across North Carolina. That entire strip can
never have trees grown on it because the pipelines don't allow
trees over the pipeline. So they're going to require glyphosate to
be sprayed forever, to keep that free of trees. That's going to
affect the cancer rates around the pipeline. It's going to destroy
the amphibians and add to the glyphosate loads that they're already
receiving. And glyphosate causes birth defects and major
problems in amphibians and will destroy the population.
02:30:48 Also, recent peer-reviewed scientific journals have talked
about a new finding, which is that the pocosins and Carolina bays
along our eastern part of the state don't depend on just rainwater.
They mostly depend on the flow of shallow groundwater.
The pipeline is going to create a dam and preferential flow
that will disrupt those fragile, very important ecosystems forever.
You cut off their water supply, and they're gone.
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder I
Page 95
And finally, this pipeline is going to affect the climate, and
that's not a temporary effect. That's going to affect the world for
thousands of years. It's not temporary.
02:31:46 So do your job. Don't become the Department of
Environmental Disasters. Look at the word "quality"—quality of
life, quality of the water—and stick to your charge, which is to be
the Department of Environmental Quality. Thank you.
[APPLAUSE]
Wrenn: Our next speaker is Irene Cygan [ph].
Cygan: Good evening, distinguished members of environmental quality,
water quality. My name is Irene Cygan, and I reside in Cary,
North Carolina. I'm here to express my concern about the
proposed Atlantic Pipeline. I want toI don't have any additional
facts to present. I don't really need to reiterate the many ones that
were already presented here.
02:32:57 But I'd like to express my concern as a Sierra Club
member, as a parent, a grandparent, as a hiker, a kayaker, and an
enjoyer of the great water quality that we enjoy in Wake County,
North Carolina. And it is for these reasons that I ask you to reject
the pipeline.
First of all, the record of pipelines speaks for itself. There
have been so many incidents that we need to consider the
likelihood of that occurring again to be very high.
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder 1
Page 96
02:33:32 And in spite of the fact that we've heard from the people
who are proponents, that this won't happen again, there's no way
we can guarantee that those things won't happen. There's an
extremely large number of bodies of water that are at risk here.
The cost in dollars and water is above anything that could equal the
good results of this.
And the cost to North Carolina utility customers, as well,
is—which will be paid at a 15% return. When did I ever get 15%
on my investments? I don't think that I can get that on a CD, but
they expect to get that on the—what they spent on this pipeline.
And that there's no proven need for the pipeline.
02:34:20 Forward thinking also would encourage solar wind
conservation, in order to handle our future power needs. To
sacrifice our land and water for the benefit of a handful of jobs and
a few individuals is a poor bargain. The jobs that they're talking
about are hard to imagine, as jobs go to communities with well-
educated, well-trained workforces, not those who happen to have a
pipeline nearby.
And those benefiting by payoffs from the Dominion or
Duke are really monies that are going to be paid by the utility
customers.
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder I
Page 97
So ladies and gentlemen of the Division of Water
Resources, please deny this request for the sake of my children, my
grandchildren, and yours. Thank you.
[APPLAUSE]
02:35:17 Wrenn: Our next speaker is Sophie Kathariou [ph].
Kathariou: Good evening. Thank you. My name is Sophie Kathariou. I live
in Raleigh, and I will be very, very brief, because I agree with my
predecessors that this is an ill-advised idea that will benefit very
few and only lucratively [ph].
I would like to also emphasize the person right before Irene
[ph], the terminology, and if we could, please, all of us, be very
cautious about the terms. Especially the term "temporarily."
When one reads this pamphlet and they see that less than one acre
will be permanently impacted, they will be justified in thinking,
"Why worry?"
02:36:10 And I think this is not serving us well. Because we all
know that there's no such thing as assurance of not larger,
permanent impacts. And permanent is a relative term. None of us
are permanent, but from the point of view of short term versus long
term, I don't think these statements do justice to the complexity of
this very big project.
02:36:49 And as the person right before me also said, climate. You
know, we're not talking about moving a chair out of a house and
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder 1
Page 98
putting it back on; this is a big project, at this point [ph], because it
involves gas. It is going—through leaks and other things—going
to impact the local warming. And there's not really much short
term about global warming.
So I would like to thank you for the opportunity for us to
speak, and to please be very careful about the terms and their
implications. Thank you.
[APPLAUSE]
02:37:28 Wrenn: The next speaker is Dave Carlson [ph].
M: [INDISCERNIBLE].
Wrenn: Okay. Our next speaker is Robert Scull [ph].
Scull: My name's Robert Scull, and thanks for making this hearing
possible so all these people can come out and speak about the way
they feel about this and give you all the facts that they have in
getting denied.
Like some other people, I already spoke on Tuesday a
couple of days ago, in Fayetteville, where we had 33 people who
spoke in favor and 10 people who spoke against.
02:38:24 And I've heard that there's going to be a lot of jobs, and I
don't see a lot of jobs in the construction of the pipeline one time
when they're already building it in Virginia, so there's going to be
a lot of the same people coming down here and doing the same
kind of work.
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder I
Page 99
Perhaps there will be some jobs in environmental clean-up
after they destroy the wetlands of North Carolina. But those are
not the kind of jobs that we want to see.
There's probably also going to be some jobs in—more
health care jobs. There's going to be a need for more people to
work in health care. And of course, this pipeline is not going to be
entirely responsible for sea -level rise, but there probably are going
to be some jobs created when the sea level rises and we have to
remove all those buildings that are along the beaches and all those
people are going to have to go somewhere, so I guess that is going
to create some jobs, as well.
02:39:31 So if this is the kind of economy that people want, then it
just doesn't make much sense to me. So I've already spoken once,
and it's kind of unfair for me to speak again, and I really would
like everybody to have the chance to speak. So I'm going to end it
here. Thanks very much for allowing us to come out. And, if
possible, if everyone can't speak tonight, I really hope that you'll
have another hearing so that everybody can come out—
[APPLAUSE]—and say what they want to say, because there are a
lot of counties, from the Virginia line down to where it's going to
terminate, wherever it's going, and everybody should have a
chance to speak. Thank you.
[APPLAUSE]
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder 1
Page 100
02:40:35 Wrenn: Our next speaker is Bonnie Przelomski [ph].
Przelomski: One September evening, my family and I were sitting around in the
family room watching television, and I noticed, up on the ceiling,
there was this shadow. And on closer investigation, I realized that
our upstairs bathroom had sprung some kind of a leak.
Well, I went to the local kitchen and bath place and began
to think about redecorating, and I was talking to the representative
there, and I mentioned that we had an upstairs leak in our
bathroom. And her face just dropped, and she said, "Wow.
Recently, we've had a lot of reports of leaking bathrooms, upstairs
in the houses, in our area."
02:41:30 In the next couple of weeks, I had two neighbors who had
replaced pipes. One of them had an eight -inch crack. Another
one, it was an upstairs bathroom leak, again. And I just thought,
"This is unusual, to have all these leaks." And we're all in the
same neighborhood area that this has happened. The year was
2011, and then I remembered the events of August 23rd 2011.
And I remember that day, because it was such a calm day, a
still day, and I was glad, because I had to take my daughter into
school to get her school schedule for high school. And we went
out to lunch. Had a nice lunch. And then I went back to work.
02:42:12 And it was around 2:00 in the afternoon. All of a sudden
there was this—what I thought—was a gust of wind that slammed
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder I
Page 101
into the building I worked in and shook the entire building. I
looked out the window, and the tree outside my window, there was
not a single leaf that was even moving.
And I thought, "Well, this is kind of odd."
[INDISCERNIBLE] some commotion in the hallway at work, and
I heard the word "earthquake." I immediately called my daughter,
who went back home alone [ph]. And she said, "Mom, the whole
house just began to shake. And I ran outside."
02:43:01 You know, I had to walls through the house. And nothing
that we saw, at that time, anything that we could see that was a
problem.
In North Carolina, we're faced with so many challenges,
the hurricanes and tornadoes and floods. And I'm surprised
nobody has mentioned this earthquake. It did not happen in North
Carolina. It happened in Virginia, and we felt the effects of it.
I'm very concerned about this route of the decomposed
pipeline, because I am very concerned about what it can do to our
water quality. And when I did learn that this is pipeline is
crossing the Tar River before it goes into our reservoir, I am
concerned about my home water supply
02:43:53 Years ago, as a Girl Scout leader, along with the girls in my
troop, I learned about the Neuse River waterlog. And when two
other girls completed their Bronze Awards, their project was that
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder 1
Page 102
they made a trail guide for Medoc Mountain State Park. It was a
real rewarding experience to see these girls learn about the habitat
of a Neuse waterlog. And I also am just so pleased with how they
took on, themselves, this unique species. And I do request that you
reject this proposal—this permit, so that these kinds of things can
still continue.
[APPLAUSE]
02:44:39 Wrenn: Our next speaker is Caroline Halsey [ph].
Hensley: Hi. My name is Caroline Hensley [ph].
Wrenn: [INDISCERNIBLE].
Hensley: That's okay. So for the past six years, I have been fortunate
enough to not have to buy my fish. Let me tell you why. It all
started on an early morning fishing trip, as we set out to catch
some ever -evasive rock fish. My boyfriend at the time, now
fiancee, had tried to land one for almost 25 years. As we came
around the bend in the lower Tar River, we heard an enormous
amount of splashing, and suddenly, we were in the middle of a
school of a hundred hungry striped bass.
02:45:40 It was all we could do contain our excitement, and when we
finally got one in the boat, my partner had the look of pure joy on
his face. That was a moment I'll never forget. I caught one, too.
By the way. Actually, we caught 10. It was great.
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder I
Page 103
As a tenth -generation North Carolinian, he and his family
have shared their traditions and told their stories of their proud
culture and the heritage of their family.
Being from the mountains the swampy, tannin -filled waters
of the Tar, Roanoke, and sounds—waters are places for future
adventure that we might take our future kids, someday. I want to
protect the places we love, and the people, from what happened to
my community.
02:46:22 Duke Energy forced a gas plant into Asheville, against
strong opposition, so every time I drive home and pass the future
site of this dirty fossil -fuel plant, I'm filled with anger.
No one should have to deal with the social, economic, or
racial injustices perpetuated by monopolies like Duke Energy. The
proposed Atlantic Coast Pipeline would cause severe harm to
people and important species, such as the striped bass, madtom
catfish, and American chad. The loss of these species would be
devastating to families like mine, and it is simply not worth the
risk of even one release of toxic fluids that would be impossible to
reverse.
The potential for violations of water quality is too high for
human health, our ecosystem, and any animal species. That is why
you must deny this permit. Thank you. You must ensure wetlands
and watersheds are protected in particular, the crossing just
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder I
Page 104
hundreds of yards north of the rock fish capital of the world, in
Walden, North Carolina, shows just one example of egregious
recklessness for our environment by Duke Energy and the lack of
any care for our environment.
02:47:28 Furthermore, the unjust [ph] route of this dangerous
pipeline further burdens communities of color, low-income
communities, and indigenous peoples. You must deny use permit
for once. Stand up to protect this corporate polluter, and protect us
before something tragic happens that you could have prevented.
As a young woman of childbearing age, it is maddening to
me—it's already been mentioned tonight—that I cannot eat fish
from our waters, according to your own standards, on a regular
basis, as they currently are. Why would we ever want to go in the
opposite direction when we need cleaner water? Please do the
right thing. Thank you.
[APPLAUSE]
02:48:16 Wrenn: The next speaker is Linwood Parker [ph].
Parker: I am Linwood Parker. I have enjoyed the evening. I am the mayor
of a little town that hopes to have the availability of natural gas, or
at least that's what I hoped before I got here tonight.
But since I've got here, I've come to believe that we ought
to do away with gas. [APPLAUSE]
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder I
Page 105
I have onlyI have only one question. Where's the gas? I
had a scientist say that all the universities in the sciences were
against gas, but I don't know where universities are that don't have
gas.
I went to get a sandwich after I was denied the right to
speak, initially, and I saw a sign stuck in the ground. It said, "No
pipeline." Somebody needs to remove it because there's a pipeline
in this building [ph]
Now, there's one thing to talk about water quality. There's
one thing to talk about, we don't like fracking. Now, let's just be
honest with each other. When we start talking about economics, if
you look—and this report comes from the University of North
Carolina—covered it in the News & Observer, hardly bastions of
support for industry. Six of the poorest counties in this state—six
of the counties with declining population, including Nash,
Edgecombe—one of the largest—or Northampton County,
Edgecombe County, Halifax County—all the counties that we've
been talking about tonight.
02:50:35 But we go, we look and see, what are the largest gangs [ph]
of population? What are the largest areas of prosperity rather than
poverty, because I've heard all night how we have abused the
people that are indigenous to this area. Oh, the highest levels are
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder 1
Page 106
Mecklenburg, Wake, Durham. Wake, Chatham, Cabarrus,
Mecklenburg. Wake, Franklin. New Hanover. Wake, Wake.
Now if we're going to do away with natural gas, let's start
where they're using it, not where we don't have any. Let's start
where it already exists.
02:51:21 Now I know that there's nobody here that wants to change
what's going on in their little community. I hear a lot of people
saying, "We don't want gas for you, because it's somewhere else
other than in this region." "We don't want a chimney for you."
But it's clear from this report, as well as the declining
population in eastern North Carolina, and the lack of jobs, that if
we can't come together and come up with something that makes
sense when we all know—the last speaker, I believe, going down
the line, aid the didn't like the coal-fired plants out in the western
part of the state.
Well, that's the reason we're going to get natural gas—to
help the environment. My grandfather had a saying. When I'd go
the candy store or he'd drag me. I'd go in, and I'd start looking
around. And he'd say, "Son, you can have a nickel's worth of
chocolates or a nickel's worth of lemon drops. But you can't have
both."
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder I
Page 107
02:52:27 Well, we can't have both. We need to have a fair and
honest discussion about what we're doing and make sure we're
doing it in a positive direction.
But based on the fact of what this company's done and
what they've done previously, honestly, they the gas lines are not
totally—are not totally bad, because if they were pouring poison
into rivers, they can do that in Wayne County. The can do it in
Mecklenburg County. They can do it in all these counties where
everybody is reaping the benefit.
02:53:00 So all I've said tonight is this—let's be honest about it. If
you're opposed to it, it was a nice my community.
Used to, when they came up, the thing for the maid [ph], she would
say to me—there's a little bit of [INDISCERNIBLE]. She would
say, "Now, Linwood, there's never been a hoecake"—for people
that don't know, that's a pancake, a Southern pancake—"There's
never been a hoecake that don't have two sides. One might be
browner than the other, but they always have two sides."
There's two sides to this issue, and the main thing we've
got to remember is we've got to work together so that eastern
North Carolina has some of the same opportunities that we find in
the middle of the state. Thank you very much.
[APPLAUSE]
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder I
Page 108
02:54:21 Wrenn: We have this space for about 30 more minutes. We have quite a
few more people to speak, and I'm not sure that we're going to get
to everybody tonight.
If you're folks who have registered to speak and you prefer
to go ahead and provide your comments in written form and not
speak tonight so that other folks can speak, we'd be happy to
accept those. But, as I said, we only have this space for another 30
minutes. We'll try to get as many people in as possible, but please
understand that we're not going to be able to get everybody heard
tonight, probably, unless things go much quicker than they have so
far.
Our next speaker—and if you have registered to speak and
you have not spoken yet, if you could move towards the front, and
then we can try to get folks moving through as fast as we can.
Our next speaker is going to be Kathy Winslow [ph].
02:55:31 Winslow: I'll just [INDISCERNIBLE].
Wrenn: Okay, thank you.
Winslow: My name is Kathy Winslow, and thank you for listening today. I
have lived in Carrboro since 1979, but my husband grew up there.
And his family, going back to the 1700s, grew up in North
Carolina. They farmed. They raised cattle. They sold mules, and
they taught their children to take care of the land, because that's all
you have.
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder I
Page 109
My children grew up hiking in the woods, canoeing and
fishing on the Tar River, on Fishing Creek, on Swift Creek, finding
whalebones and other fossils, and arrowheads—evidence of a rich
history of a land.
02:56:20 So I'm not here as a scientist, but as a resident deeply
invested in the region, who cares about the future of North
Carolina. So I'm not going to tell you what other people have said
about the dangers of pollution that this ACP poses to use. There
are so many things that put us at risk, and we all rely on having a
good source of clean drinking water. I believe it would be
impossible to construct the ACP without damaging the streams,
rivers, wetlands, and groundwater.
And even though people talked about jobs, if we destroy
the water and the environment, there will be no reason for people
to come to this part of the country and work. So as a mother, a
grandmother, I beg of you to think about the children, your
grandchildren, your great grandchildren. I can't imagine that 200
years—if we have a ACP hereI can't imagine that there would
be a place to live. Thank you.
[APPLAUSE]
02:57:44 Wrenn: Our next speaker is John Williams.
J. Williams: Thank you. Thank you very much for the opportunity to speak.
My name is John Williams. I've been an environmental consultant
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder I
Page 110
who's completed large, industrial projects, including pipelines
throughout the United States for over 30 years.
I'm here on behalf of a group called Preferred Alternatives
[ph], a nonprofit who had some supporters who live at the
pipeline's proposed route.
I've opposed many pipelines over the years. However, I
agree with the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission's staff's
conclusions that this project can be constructed and operated with
temporary impacts that can be mitigated.
02:58:41 I'm glad that the agency described some of the features of
the mitigation for this pipeline. I'd like to mention a few more,
that FERC [ph] will require a developer to test all water mills [ph]
and springs near the pipeline route before construction, to provide
a water quality baseline.
If folks think the pipeline has damaged their wells or
damaged water quality, there will be proof, and the developers will
be obligated to provide an alternative water system.
I have much more remarks, but I'd like to hear other people
get a chance to speak, so I'll conclude by mentioning that, for the
purposes of this hearing, the pipeline will have a very important,
indirect impact. The project will bring economic growth, and the
pipeline will supply natural gas.
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder 1
Page 111
02:59:37 These gas supplies will speed the shutdown of some or all
of North Carolina's coal-fired power plants. The shutdown of a
power planta coal -burning power plant—will create enormous
benefits for North Carolina's water quality. Every shutdown coal
plant will stop pumping millions of gallons of effluent, and in
North Carolina's rivers, every shutdown coal plant will not be
dumping millions of pounds of coal ash slurry into poorly
engineered ash lagoons.
Thank you for allowing me the opportunity to comment.
03:00:13 Wrenn: Thank you, Mr. Williams.
The next speaker is Deb Self [ph].
Self- Good evening. My name is Deb Self, and I spoke Tuesday, but I
thought of some other things to say. Tonight I'm speaking on
behalf of Sierra Club.
I'm a geologist and also a first responder. And I have 35
years of experience in monitoring industrial and construction and
stormwater violations. I've documented hundreds of failures in the
real-world application of so-called best management practices.
03:01:09 Like you, I've seen hundreds of failed silt fences and straw
wattles. I've seen sediment -laden runoff flowing around and under
the silk fences, and those are in highly visible areas next to our
roadways. You see the muddy water all the time.
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder I
Page 112
If you, on purpose, blast in a creek, and you use a bulldozer
to cut an open trench into a stream bank, and as is planned here,
you remove the straw wattle before you do that during the daytime
and then you put it back at night, you will have a consolidated
sediment flowing into the creeks, and you will have violations of
water quality standards for total suspended sediment and turbidity.
03:02:00 It's a rational and a defensible conclusion for you that this
project will cause water quality violations. There are a lot of
arguments against this pipeline from climate change into locking
us into fossil -fuel infrastructure. There are a lot of reasons—there
are a lot of job about economics. But your job is only about water
quality.
I also just want to mention horizontal drilling and how
that's a better approach than open trenching. But with the Rover
Pipeline in Ohio, which recently was granted its clean -water
certification, erroneously, they spilled over a million gallons of
drilling fluid. We could see that here, too.
03:02:52 Finally, as a first responder, I've stood in the blast zone at
San Bruno where a contractor accidentally pierced a pipeline there
and watched house after house explode, because it was too difficult
to get to the shut-off valve.
And these communities are endangered, but the waterways
are definitely in danger. And you have both the right and the duty
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder 1
Page 113
to simply, on water quality grounds, reject the certification—and I
urge you to do so. Thank you.
[APPLAUSE]
03:03:34 Wrenn: [INDISCERNIBLE]? She left?
F: Yeah, she left.
Wrenn: Thank you. The next speaker is Marcus Willis [ph]. Okay. Next
speaker is Rob Jackson [ph].
Jackson: Hello. My name is Rob Jackson. I worked for Caterpillar for 16
years. Most recently, I now work for Gregory Poole [ph]. We're
the Caterpillar dealer in eastern North Carolina.
I guess I'm speaking from a little bit of a different angle.
You know, Caterpillar, we have a huge presence here in North
Carolina. We've got about 3,000 employees. Gregory Poole has
about 1,000. And our equipmentI'm extremely proud to work
for a company like CAT and a dealer like Poole.
03:04:56 The equipment—we build roads, bridges, houses,
buildings. We build solar farms. We help build, you know, wind
farms. And we build pipelines. AndI guess I was going to go a
little bit into the difference between what is happening, you know,
in a solar farm and oil, gas.
In this case, obviously, we are talking about natural gas, not
oil. And I trust in FERC, and DEQ has chosen the best path with
the most minimal impact to the environment.
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder 1
Page 114
And we actually sell more equipment in the solar industry
than we do building pipelines. But it just simply isn't efficient
enough. Now, in the future, I hope it is, but right now, natural gas
is clearly the way to go.
We are pro -development, pro -growth, pro -construction,
pro -economy, pro -revenue, and, ultimately, all that leads to pro -
jobs.
You know, I spent some time today, here in Rocky Mount,
and we were looking at the facility, we were actually analyzing
how much we need to grow, how many jobs we need to put in
Rocky Mount just to support the development that's going to
happen here.
03:06:42 There's two projects. There's the CSX [ph] project and the
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com
pipeline that are going to cause us to have to post jobs. We think
they're going to bring in over 100 machines for this job, that's just
in North Carolina. And those jobs are going to average about
$500,000 apiece. So we're talking about, maybe, $50 million
worth of equipment, which is huge—and hundreds and hundreds of
jobs.
We're going to post several ourselves. I ask you to not
only improve this but move it forward as fast as you can so that we
can go out there, post the jobs for our company as well as many

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder I
Page 115
other companies out there that are doing the same thing. Thank
you.
[APPLAUSE]
03:07:27 Wrenn: Thank you, Mr. Jackson.
Our next speaker is Ann Harrington [ph].
Harrington: Hey. My name is Ann Harrington. I live in Greenville, North
Carolina. I rejoice to be here today, to be living in a place that
allows this to happen. The U.S. is truly a great country. I am a
Catholic priest and pastor of Free Spirit Inclusive Catholic
Community [ph].
03:08:02 In our value statement, we say that we will work toward
ecological sustainability. I am here tonight to advocate for that.
Many things bother me about the proposed pipeline.
We've already heard about most of them. I've always been a
nature lover. I do not see a good reason for destroying 600 acres
of forested wetlands. This will have a long-term impact. This will
take 30 years to replace that forest. The loss of habitat for many
endangered and threatened animals is unacceptable to me.
03:08:30 I grew up in Baltimore, Maryland. An early memory, a
happy one, is swimming in the Chesapeake Bay. Maybe I was six
years old. Shortly after that time, that beach and many others were
closed due to industrial pollution.
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder I
Page 116
One of the things I love about North Carolina is its rich
diversity of natural places. To put them at risk is foolish. We
know what it takes to restore lost habitat in lives, dollars, and
broken hearts.
My son works [INDISCERNIBLE] in the Outer Banks.
His and many other people's livelihoods depend on water staying
clean.
03:09:03 We must make the sacrifice for an energy future that is
sustainable and renewable. We must learn to make decisions
based on what our grandchildren and their grandchildren will
inherit. It is time for us to embrace the legacy of a healthy planet
for them. Renewable energy is the best investment for the people.
If the money for the pipeline were invested in solar energy,
there would be power for 300,000 homes. Please, please, please
reject this project. It is time to stop sacrificing life for gross
profits. You have a great responsibility.
I urge you to follow the higher law of love that Jesus and
then of the prophets down the ages speak of. Let us love and care
from the created order, God's first revelation of who She is. I
thank you, everyone, for your attendance.
03:09:55 I believe deep in my heart that being here has increased the
light. God has richly blessed our land; as a favorite hymn of mine
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder 1
Page 117
says, "It was made for you and me." Let us leave it a blessing for
future generations.
03:10:10 [APPLAUSE]
Wrenn: Thank you, Ann. Our next speaker is Ese Glover [ph].
Glover: Thank you for the opportunity to speak tonight. The basis for the
construction of the Atlantic Coast Pipeline fails to address the
excessively extreme risk to the water resources of eastern North
Carolina. This includes but is not limited to above -ground
reservoirs; regional water filtration structures, such as wetlands,
swamps, farmlands composed of numerous soil types, rivers, lakes,
blue -line streams, intermittent streams, farm ponds, aquifers, and
all forms of aquatic life.
03:11:10 The Atlantic Coast Pipeline will serve no purpose for the
region, as sufficient capacity exists for power generation -fueled
transportation. The Atlantic Coast Pipeline will only provide a
measure of profit for wealthy investors while risking—risking our
water resources. The risk to both the Cape Fear and Tar/Pamlico
River basins are unacceptable. These excess risks are well
documented in over 3,000 pipeline incidents across America since
the year 2000.
03:11:51 I must emphasize the extreme risk a pipeline like the
Atlantic Coast Pipeline exposes not only to our water supply and
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder 1
Page 118
aquatic life, but poses an extreme high risk to our entire regional
way of life.
03:12:11 On behalf of the farmers, ranchers, and all Americans in
eastern North Carolina who rely on groundwater -source supplies
supporting all life forms in this part of America, I request you take
the necessary action to terminate further development of the
Atlantic Coast Pipeline and request this document be placed in the
official record.
F: Yes.
[APPLAUSE]
03:12:44 Glover: I'm sorry. And when the turbines climb and the batteries chime,
renewable energy will take over.
[APPLAUSE]
Wrenn: The next speaker is Linda Fisher [ph].
Fisher: I'm from Nash County, just a few miles up the road, and I'm
giving you a picture of Swift Creek, which is one of my favorite
places. And a lot of people who live around here think it's a pretty
nice place. I hear there's really good fish in there.
03:13:44 You see the rocks in the creek? The fishing, I think, is
because a waterfall's there and the water's oxygenated. I hear the
Tar River is finding mussels there, an endangered species, and
other endangered species, many. But the thing that hasn't been
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder 1
Page 119
pointed out tonight is the reason this water is so pristine and
flourishing is because it's on the fall zone.
03:14:11 And if you look on that map where the red line is, all of
that's on the fall zone. And so every stream and creek and river on
the fall zone, and all the pristine and flourishing habitats there will
be affected. Negatively, I'm afraid.
The pipeline will probably bring increased sedimentation,
with its blasting, drilling, trenching, with equipment the size of
which we have never seen. Not in this area. It will forever change
wetlands, rivers, creeks in eastern North Carolina.
03:14:54 And I also hear that omissions—as much as 177%, not
17 will be allowable. And I hear that natural gas is largely
methane, and this will really be toxic to all those natural habitats
I've been talking about.
It's a dangerous project. The risk is large for the water and
wetland habitats. Eastern North Carolina has never seen anything
with that that might bring as much environmental impact, except
maybe hurricane Floyd or hurricane Matthew.
03:15:40 Well, we couldn't do anything about that. That was
something nature brought. We can certainly do something about
this pipeline. Thank you.
[APPLAUSE]
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder 1
Page 120
Wrenn: Our next speaker is Jean Zhuang [ph]. We have an additional three
minutes from [INDISCERNIBLE].
Zhuang: Hello. My name is Jean Zhuang, and I'm an attorney with the
Southern Environmental Law Center. First, I want to thank the
Division for taking this first step in requiring 401 certification for
the Atlantic Coast Pipeline. But your job is not yet done.
03:16:30 Construction of the pipeline will cross seven miles of
streams and will clear out over 450 acres of wetlands, more than
North Carolina permits in an entire year. It is Atlantic's burden to
demonstrate compliance with water and quality standards, and it
has not done so yet, for at least three reasons.
First, Atlantic has not provided us with enough
information. Pipeline construction without the digging of trenches
substantially reduces environmental impacts, yet Atlantic only
considered and proposed this methods for seven out of hundreds of
crossings. It has written off all others are "unfit," citing concerns
about time and cost, and without any further analysis.
03:17:18 Without cite -specific information on the feasibility of
trenchless connection for each and every crossing, the division
cannot ensure that the pipeline will minimize adverse impacts.
Second, Atlantic's cumulative -impact assessment is faulty.
The division is required to review reasonably anticipated future
impacts of the pipeline. Therefore, Atlantic's analysis of
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

03:17:53
03:18:23
03:19:06 [APPLAUSE]
Wrenn:
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com
NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder I
Page 121
cumulative impacts must include related projects, including those
that are already planned.
For instance, a 26 -mile long, 20 -inch wide pipeline that
will connect to the Atlantic Coast Pipeline, one that is already
planned by the Piedmont Natural Gas [ph].
Finally, Atlantic's proposed restoration is wholly
inadequate. Atlantic claims that it will restore water bodies and
wetlands until they are "successful." But Atlantic has no plans to
monitor any water quality factors, including temperature, dissolved
oxygen, and turbidity, all of which Atlantic already admits that will
be impacted.
The division should require pre -construction measurements
of each of these standards at each site. And for Atlantic to monitor
and restore those standards until after construction.
As you've heard from other community members, on
Tuesday and tonight, Atlantic Coast Pipeline will harm hundreds
of streams, wetlands, and rivers that are beloved by the people of
North Carolina. It is the division's job to protect those places, and
the company hasn't provided you with the information you need to
do that job. Therefore, this certification must be denied. Thank
you.
Our next speaker is Senator Angela Bryant [ph].

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder I
Page 122
M: She's gone.
Wrenn: Our next speaker is Earl Evans [ph].
03:20:20 Evans: Good evening. My name is Earl Evans, and I'm a lifelong
resident, an enrolled citizen [ph] and tribal council member of the
Halawi-Saponi Indian tribe here in Hollister, North Carolina.
One of my duties as a tribal counselor is that I'm one of the
tribe's delegates to the National Congress of American Indians,
which is the national organization representing almost 600
American -Indian tribal nations all across the United States, and by
way of resolution and those backing over 500 American -Indian
tribal nations, I'll read a portion of the resolution that the National
Congress of American Indians has passed in regards to the Atlantic
Coast Pipeline and your regulatory duties to consider certification.
03:21:03 Whereas on April 4th, 2017, the Halawi-Saponi Indian tribe
provided comment to the deputy secretary of FERP [ph],
specifically requesting to engage in fully meaningful consultation,
a government -to -government consultation in regards to the
Atlantic Coast Pipeline. And therefore be it resolved that the
National Council of American Indians supports the Halawi-Saponi
Indian tribes to engage in meaningful government -to -government
consultation with the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission and
other agencies in the protection of its waters, lands, ancestors, and
sacred places.
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder I
Page 123
03:21:45 And be it further resolved that the National Congress of
American Indians calls upon all entities and governments to deny
any further progress towards the issuance of permits and other
approvals regarding Dominion's Atlantic Coast Pipeline until
FERP and other agencies has engaged in full and meaningful
government -to -government consultations with all Indian tribal
nations, including the Halawi-Saponi, that may attach cultural or
religious concerns to the Atlantic Coast Pipeline and the conduct of
a full and complete environmental -impact statement that fully
considers the concerns of all Indian tribal nations.
03:22:19 And be it further resolved that the National Congress of
American Indians calls on all of these agencies to conduct
extensive tribal consultation and meaningful policy changes that
preserve and protect sacred places and native people's rights to
access and use them in accordance with traditional practices in
original territories without limitation or penalty, including the
sacred places affected by the Atlantic Coast Pipeline.
03:22:44 And be it finally resolved that this shall be the policy of the
National Congress of American Indians until it is withdrawn or
modified by subsequent resolution.
So again, on behalf of the National Congress of American
Indians and almost 600 American -Indian tribal nations across the
United States, I respectfully request that, in order to protect our
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder I
Page 124
waters, our environment, and our sacred places, that you deny
certification. Thank you.
[APPLAUSE]
03:23:16 Wrenn: Our next speaker is [INDISCERNIBLE].
M: Did you say Rob Bissette [ph]?
Wrenn: Yes.
Bissette: Good evening. I appreciate you all coming and having a meeting
tonight. Appreciate everybody coming. I didn't really form a
letter or anything. I just got a few things I want to make some
remarks on.
03:23:50 I've heard now on groups that everybody's speaking for it
to against it. Young people are for it. Young people are against it.
Both sides.
There is both sides. The gentleman from—he said "small
town," [INDISCERNIBLE] mentioned that, you know, two sides
to things.
And there is two sides to a lot of things. This pipeline
why do we need it? There's a retired professor from the University
of Cincinnati who wrote an article in 2010. Duke first come up
with the idea of building this pipeline.
03:24:23 He's a retired economic professor. He wrote that Duke's
own base report for economic growth showed that there was no
economic growth in this area—did not need the pipeline. But yet
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder I
Page 125
when they come out and want to build the pipeline, they have
presented it as great economic growth going to take place and we
need this pipeline.
03:24:49 But their own business standard report said it did not. So,
two sides, folks.
I do a lot of reading. I want a lot of you to go back and pull
up FEMA. Everybody's heard of that. FERP. And also PIPA
[ph]. PIPA is a pipeline -information planning association. I think
I said that, right? They're made up of members from the pipeline
companies. They put regulations and stuff in place to protect
pipelines.
03:25:22 Now, we're talking about all this economic growth, all
right? I'm not going to talk about the environmental impact.
We've already talked about all that. You can go home and you can
Google "environmental impact of burning natural gas" and get
more information on the negativities of it, as much as you can with
the coal. So it can't be promoted that this is going to be a perfect,
clean thing. It's not.
But, in these companies, or these different groups that I
mentioned, every one of them has reports wrote on these pipelines,
including this one. And in their reports, they start right out in
certain sections and, I mean, just pour all of the positive things out
there.
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder I
Page 126
03:26:04 It's safer to transport the volume of gas going through this
line from point A to point B. For the mine material, it probably is
a safer way to transport. They talk about all the positive things.
This is what we hear on TV. This is what we hear from all the
groups, from the representatives of the meetings, ACP, and the
whole group.
But if every one of you go on these sites, the very next
paragraph is something no one talks about. The negatives. This is
the second side. Every one of them talks about thein the event
that there's a leakage or an explosion or fire, that it is a
catastrophic event, economic event, a changing event for a
community or a society where it happens.
03:26:47 Pollution impacts, the whole nine yards. They don't want
to talk [ph] about this second paragraph. The federal government
has a formula for figuring this impact zone. So far, I have not
seen, from what I have read—and I have gone on and Googled,
and we have looked at information that's come off of live news
broadcasts—this is not a person's opinion. This is the real, live
things that's took place.
03:27:15 Every one of these explosions nearby are twice the size of
what this impact study is that the federal government has. One, it
hadn't been long ago, a half a mile radius. Homes were damaged.
I wonder how many of you live a half a mile from it. I live with
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder I
Page 127
my father, on one end of this hole right here to the other is where
I'm going to sleep on it.
03:27:38 People being informed is another thing. My time's up. All
right. I appreciate it. Thank you.
Wrenn: Thank you.
[APPLAUSE]
Wrenn: Earlier we passed through, passed over Ted Godwin [ph]. Is he
still in the audience?
Godwin: I'm here. Thank you. I appreciate your patience and your
perseverance.
In my pastI am the Vice Chairman of the Johnston
County Board of Commissioners. In the past, I was a competitive
canoe racer. I raced in all the major basins in eastern North
Carolina, from the Roanoke to the Cape Fear. Water quality is
very important to me. I agree with a lot of speakers. Don't let
ACP or Duke ruin our water.
03:28:33 In 1963, in Selma, a pipeline was terminated, a large oil
terminal, a large tank's there now. Near my home on Loop Road,
those tanker trucks come by every day, every day. I submit that I
face a greater risk, day in, day out, meeting those tankers than I
ever will from this pipeline.
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder I
Page 128
I submit that everybody here travelling on a road has more
risk of those tankers. Those tankers could travel bridges, every
day, on all these watersheds.
03:29:06 There's risk there. We've accepted it. We live with it.
Occasionally there's hiccups, and we deal with it.
Economic development. As a commissioner, I have access
to a lot of projects that's never discussed publicly. When a
company comes to our area and looks at the possibilities of
relocating, the number -one thing that they cross off the list is when
we don't have natural gas. It's the key ingredient in getting them
to further explore that possibility.
03:29:37 So the economic impact is great. If we, in 1963, were here
tonight—if this facility existed then—and the hearing tonight was
to discuss the possibilities of building an Interstate 95 or U.S. 64, I
daresay you would have heard 95% of all the environmental
concerns raised tonight, and they're valid.
But hindsight, again, is clear. We've got to have these
arteries [ph] for transportation, economic development.
03:30:13 And I submit the risk is no greater than the risk we face
daily. And I support the regulatory agencies to do the right thing,
and approve this and oversee it. Thank you.
[APPLAUSE]
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com

NC DENR
ACP _July20_PublicHearing_Recorder 1
Page 129
03:30:37 Wrenn: That was our last featured [ph] speaker. It's 9:30. We will not
have any more speakers tonight. You will be asked to leave soon.
If you did not speak tonight or write written comments, they will
be accepted until 5:00 p.m. on August 17, 2017. Your comments
should be submitted to the email address or the postal address
found on the handout available at the registration desk. Basically,
we'll compile all the comments received and put it in the
application.
03:31:10 I will make recommendations to the director of the
Division of Water Resources for this consideration. He'll be
making final the final decision on whether to issue or deny this
application.
I would like to thank all of you for your attendance and
interest tonight. This hearing is adjourned.
[END RECORDING]
Transcript prepared by
Rogers Word Service
919-834-0000
www.rogersword.com