20080868 Ver 2_Emails_20080627

Re:,[•;~wd: Re: follow up with eric fleek and dwq and PCS NCPC mo...
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: follow up with eric fleek and dwq and PCS NCPC monitoring]
From: Larry Eaton <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 06:39:27 -0400
To: Eric Fleek <[e-mail]>
CC: John Dorney <[e-mail]>
The problem with requiring a certified lab to do their IDs is that there are no
certified labs that do estuarine bugs. CZR and Martin Posey (UNCW) are the only
groups that do estuarine IDs, so they are doing about as good as they can.
Annually CZR harrasses me for Biotic Index numbers to species they have collected in
this study and we don't have numbers for (they have sicced Caroline Reddy on me this
year in hopes she can squeeze blood out of this turnip), so I'm not too worried
about their taxonomy.
Eric does have a point that it is strange that in their latest sampling they didn't
collect edge species (odonates and beetles if it were fresh, amphipods, grass
shrimp and isopods if estuarine). It may be worth going down some time and
watching them take a sample and see if there is a way to get them out of the middle
of the stream and onto the banks as well.
Eric Fleek wrote:
that would be reasonable.
John Dorney wrote:
I also we could clarify this in the new 401 to say it must be a certified lab
and EBI versus BI as a 401 condition for the new 401 (in a few months).
Eric Fleek wrote:
No, I think I'm OK.
However, if its utterly imperative,
I can make time for a field visit.
John Dorney wrote:
I want to do anything about this?
Subject:
RE: follow up with eric fleek and dwq and PCS NCPC monitoring
From:
"Sam Cooper" <scoo [e-mail]>
Date.
Thu, 26 Jun 2008 14:28:32 -0400
To:
"'John Dorney "' <[e-mail]>
To:
"'John Dorney '', <[e-mail]>
CC:
<[e-mail]>, "'Walker, William T SAW'',
<[e-mail]>, "'Eric Fleek "'
<[e-mail]>, "'Julia Berger'" <[e-mail]>
Hello John,
This was in regard to DWQ comments on PCS NCPC benthic data/analysis at
an
EIS team meeting. Primary concerns were use of a certified lab and EBI
1 of 3 7/7/2008 2:16 PM
Re:,[Fwd: Rq: follow up with eric fleek and dwq and PCS NCPC mo...
vs
BI. A summary of the concerns can be found in the FEIS, Volume II,
Appendix
A, Attachment 1. Please let us know if we need to discuss. We've
proceeded
with monitoring as identified in the existing 401 conditions.
Regards,
Samuel Cooper
CZR Incorporated
4709 College Acres Dr., Suite #2
Wilmington, NC 28403
910 392-9253 - phone
910 392-9139 - fax
[e-mail]
-----Original Message-----
From: John Dorney [mailto:[e-mail]] Sent: Tuesday, June
24, 2008 9:08 AM
To: Eric Fleek; julia kirkland berger
Subject: Re: follow up with eric fleek and dwq and PCS NCPC monitoring
Julia - we do not think a meeting in the field is needed. Please
advise
what we need to discuss so I can see if we can do it via email or if a
phone
meeting is needed. thankx
Eric Fleek wrote:
i talked to sam about his methods and his results in light of my
comments but i do not recall needing to go down there.
i could be wrong of course but i have no recollection about needing
to set up a visit.
John Dorney wrote:
I am not sure what conversations you are referring to. Maybe Eric
Fleek was involved?
Julia Berger wrote:
hello john- hope things are well in your world and that your
award ceremony in do was satisfying!
i am following up with conversations that i think you and sam
cooper or sam and eric fleek may have had regarding
appropriateness of EBI and BI and swamp stream sampling
methodology and the ncpc creek systems studied in the pcs
monitoring. there was some interest in dwq personnel (or just
eric?) getting out there to see the creek systems.
dwq should have received the first post reduction report for
huddles cut in april of this year. czr is ready and available
to take dwq where dwq wants to go. just let us know.
best regards,
julia julia kirkland berger
senior environmental scientist
assistant office manager
2 of 3 7/7/2008 2:16 PM
Re: [Fwd: Re: follow up with eric fleek and dwq and PCS NCPC mo...
czr incorporated
4709 college acres drive suite 2
wilmington nc 28403
910.392.9253 (o)
910.392.9139 (f)
3 of 3 7/7/2008 2:16 PM
Re: [Fwd: Re.. follow up with eric fleek and dwq and PCS NCPC mo...
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: follow up with eric fleek and dwq and PCS NCPC monitoring]
From: Eric Fleek <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 14:44:05 -0400
To: John Dorney <j ohn. dorney@ncmail. net>
CC: Larry Eaton <[e-mail]>
that would aaenab1e-.- 4!A
Joh orney wrote :
I so we could clarify this in the new 401 to say it must be a certified lab and
BI versus BI as a 401 condition for the new 401 (in a few months),/
Eric Fleek wrote:
NO, I thi
However, if its utterly imperative, I can make time for a field visit.
John Dorney wrote:
want to do anything about this?
Subject:
RE: follow up with eric fleek and dwq and PCS NCPC monitoring
From:
"Sam Cooper" <[e-mail]>
Date:
Thu, 26 Jun 2008 14:28:32 -0400
To.
"'John Dorney "' <[e-mail]>
To:
"'John Dorney "' <[e-mail]>
CC:
<[e-mail]>, "Walker, William T SAW'"
<[e-mail]>, "'Eric Fleek "'
<[e-mail]>, "'Julia Berger'" <[e-mail]>
Hello John,
This was in regard to DWQ comments on PCS NCPC benthic data/analysis at an
EIS team meeting. Primary concerns were use of a certified lab and EBI vs
BI. A summary of the concerns can be found in the FEIS, Volume II,
Appendix
A, Attachment 1. Please let us know if we need to discuss. We've
proceeded
with monitoring as identified in the existing 401 conditions.
Regards,
Samuel Cooper
CZR Incorporated
4709 College Acres Dr., Suite #2
Wilmington, NC 28403
910 392-9253 - phone
910 392-9139 - fax
[e-mail]
1 of 2 6/26/2008 2:39 PM
Re: [Fwd: Re: follow up with eric fleek and dwq and PCS NCPC mo...
----Original Message-----
From: John Dorney [mailto:[e-mail]] Sent: Tuesday, June 24,
2008 9:08 AM
To: Eric Fleek; julia kirkland berger
Subject: Re: follow up with eric fleek and dwq and PCS NCPC monitoring
Julia - we do not think a meeting in the field is needed. Please advise
what we need to discuss so I can see if we can do it via email or if a
phone
meeting is needed. thankx
Eric Fleek wrote:
i talked to sam about his methods and his results in light of my
comments but i do not recall needing to go down there.
i could be wrong of course but i have no recollection about needing to
set up a visit.
John Dorney wrote:
I am not sure what conversations you are referring to. Maybe Eric
Fleek was involved?
Julia Berger wrote:
hello john- hope things are well in your world and that your
award ceremony in do was satisfying!
i am following up with conversations that i think you and sam
cooper or sam and eric fleek may have had regarding
appropriateness of EBI and BI and swamp stream sampling
methodology and the ncpc creek systems studied in the pcs
monitoring. there was some interest in dwq personnel (or just
eric?) getting out there to see the creek systems.
dwq should have received the first post reduction report for
huddles cut in april of this year. czr is ready and available to
take dwq where dwq wants to go. just let us know.
best regards,
julia julia kirkland berger
senior environmental scientist
assistant office manager
czr incorporated
4709 college acres drive suite 2
wilmington nc 28403
910.392.9253 (o)
910.392.9139 (f)
2 of 2 6/26/2008 2:39 PM
Re: [Fwd: Re: follow up with eric fleek and dwq and PCS NCPC mo...

Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: follow up with eric fleek and dwq and PCS NCPC monitoring]
From: Eric Fleek <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 14:47:54 -0400
To: John Dorney <[e-mail]>
just so we are clear on things, i went back and found my original comments:
My primary problem with their benthos data is that they make water quality
conclusions based solely on relative abundances and diversities of benthos between
sites *but do not include any analysis of the Biotic Index between sites*.
To make water quality conclusions based on benthos (particularly where there are no
EPT as is the case here) without any discussion of a BI is essentially worthless,
but they do it anyway.
My secondary problem are the taxa lists for their "timed" sweep samples. At all of
the sites samples using a sweep, their collections were almost all just chironomids
(maximum diversity using timed sweeps was *only 9 taxa*). Although I have never seen
these streams, given their ecoregion and size I would expect at least /some/
Odonate taxa and some Coleoptera. *NONE* of their samples had any of these taxa.
Moreover, I would expect a much richer Crustacean assemblage.
Bottomline--I think their sampling methods are under sampling the habitat (and
therefore diversity), and (combined with the lack of any BI analysis) make any
conclusions of water quality differences between sites useless. So, if they are
going to use benthos to make water quality conclusions between reference and
impacted sites, both before/after DBR, they need to do the following:
1) Improve benthos sampling methods so that more taxa are collected, thereby
improving subsequent comparisons between sites (I'd recommend swamp sampling).
2) Include an analysis of Biotic Index difference between sites.
John Dorney wrote:
I also we could clarify this in the new 401 to say it must be a certified lab and
EBI versus BI as a 401 condition for the new 401 (in a few months).
Eric Fleek wrote:
I No, I think I'm OK.
However, if its utterly imperative, I can make time for a field visit.
John Dorney wrote:
want to do anything about this?
Subject:
RE: follow up with eric fleek and dwq and PCS NCPC monitoring
From:
"Sam Cooper" <[e-mail]>
Date:
Thu, 26 Jun 2008 14:28:32 -0400
To:
"'John Dorney "' <[e-mail]>
To:
"'John Dorney "' <[e-mail]>
CC:
<[e-mail]>, "'Walker, William T SAW'"
<[e-mail]>, "'Eric Fleek'"
<[e-mail]>, "'Julia Berger'" <[e-mail]>
1 of 3 6/26/2008 2:45 PM
Re: [Fwd: Re: follow up with eric fleek and dwq and PCS NCPC mo...

Hello John,
This was in regard to DWQ comments on PCS NCPC benthic data/analysis at an
EIS team meeting. Primary concerns were use of a certified lab and EBI vs
BI. A summary of the concerns can be found in the FEIS, Volume II,
Appendix
A, Attachment 1. Please let us know if we need to discuss. We've
proceeded
with monitoring as identified in the existing 401 conditions.
Regards,
Samuel Cooper
CZR Incorporated
4709 College Acres Dr., Suite #2
Wilmington, NC 28403
910 392-9253 - phone
910 392-9139 - fax
[e-mail]
-----Original Message-----
From: John Dorney [mailto:[e-mail]] Sent: Tuesday, June 24,
2008 9:08 AM
To: Eric Fleek; julia kirkland berger
Subject: Re: follow up with eric fleek and dwq and PCS NCPC monitoring
Julia - we do not think a meeting in the field is needed. Please advise
what we need to discuss so I can see if we can do it via email or if a
phone
meeting is needed. thankx
Eric Fleek wrote:
i talked to sam about his methods and his results in light of my
comments but i do not recall needing to go down there.
i could be wrong of course but i have no recollection about needing to
set up a visit.
John Dorney wrote:
I am not sure what conversations you are referring to. Maybe Eric
Fleek was involved?
Julia Berger wrote:
hello john- hope things are well in your world and that your
award ceremony in do was satisfying!
i am following up with conversations that i think you and sam
cooper or sam and eric fleek may have had regarding
appropriateness of EBI and BI and swamp stream sampling
methodology and the ncpc creek systems studied in the pcs
monitoring. there was some interest in dwq personnel (or just
eric?) getting out there to see the creek systems.
dwq should have received the first post reduction report for
huddles cut in april of this year, czr is ready and available to
take dwq where dwq wants to go. just let us know.
2 of 3 6/26/2008 2:45 PM
Re: [Fwd: Re; follow up with eric fleek and dwq and PCS NCPC mo...
best regards,
julia julia kirkland berger
senior environmental scientist
assistant office manager
czr incorporated
4709 college acres drive suite 2
wilmington nc 28403
910.392.9253 (o)
910.392.9139 (f)
3 of 3 6/26/2008 2:45 PM