Attach. 5, 2016-02-10 PSC_SC Duke Ex Parte Briefing re Coal Ash Disposal

THE PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION OF SOUTH CAROLINA
COLUMBIA, SOUTH CAROLINA
PROCEEDING #16-11513 FEBRUARY 10, 2016 10:37 A.M.
ALLOWABLE EX PARTE BRIEFING [ND -2016-5-E]
REQUESTED BY DUKE ENERGY CAROLINAS, LLC (DEC) AND DUKE ENERGY PROGRESS
(DEP) — COAL ASH DISPOSAL
TRANSCRIPT OF
ALLOWABLE EX PARTE BRIEFING
COMMISSION MEMBERS PRESENT: Nikiya M. Nikki' HALL,
Chairman; Swain E. WHITFIELD, Vice Chairman; and
COMMISSIONERS John E. Butch' HOWARD, Elliott F. ELAM, JR.,
Comer H. `Randy' RANDALL, Elizabeth B. 'Lib' FLEMING, and
G. O'Neal HAMILTON,
ADVISOR TO COMMISSION: Joseph Melchers, General Counsel
STAFF PRESENT: F. David Butler, Senior Counsel; James Spearman,
Ph.D., Executive Assistant to the Commissioners; B. Randall Dong,
Esq . , Josh Mi nges , Esq . , and David W. Stark, III, Esq . , Legal Staff;
Tom Ellison and Lynn Ballentine, Advisory Staff; Jo Elizabeth M.
Wheat, CVR-CM/MIGNSC, Court Reporter; and Allison Minges and Deborah
Easterling, Hearing Room Assistants
APPEARANCES:
HEATHER SHIRLEY SMITH, ESQUIRE, along with MIKE RU H E
[Director, Environmental Policy and Affairs / Duke Energy
(SC) ] , presenter, representing DUKE ENERGY CAROLINAS, LLC, AND DUKE
ENERGY PROGRESS, LLC
JEFFREY M. NELSON, ESQUIRE, representing t h e SOUTH
CAROLINA OFFICE OF REGULATORY STAFF
PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION OF SOUTH CAROLINA
10 1 EXECUTIVE CENTER DRIVE
COLUMBIA, SC 29210
WWW.PSC.SC.GOV
POST OFFICE BOX 1 1 649
COLUMBIA, SC 2921 1

ALLOWABLE EX PARTE DEC and DEP / Coal Ash Disposal Update 2
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I N D E X
Jnr -C
PENING MATTERS ........................................... 3-6
PRESENTATION
MR. MIKE RUHE [DUKE ENERGYJ ........................... 6
Question(s)/Comment by Commissioner Hamilton ............... 19
Questions)/Comment by Commissioner Howard ................. 20
Question(s)/Comment by Vice Chairman Whitfield ............. 23
Question(s)/Comment by Commissioner Fleming ................ 28
Question(s)/Comment by Commissioner Elam ................... 33
Question(s)/Comment by Vice Chairman Whitfield ............. 34
REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE ..................................... 39
Please note the following inclusions/attachments to the record:
PowerPoint presentation (PDF)
For identification of additional referenced materials (if any) and
links for same, please see:
ORS correspondence filed as part of the ex parte briefing
process
2/10/16
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P R O C E E D I N G S
CHAIRMAN HALL: Thank you. Be seated. Good
morning, everyone. We will call this Allowable Ex
Parte Briefing to order, and ask Mr. Melchers to
read the docket, please.
MR. MELCHERS: Thank you, Madam Chairman.
Commissioners, we are here pursuant to a Notice of
Request for Allowable Ex Parte Briefing. The
requestors are Duke Energy Carolinas, LLC, and Duke
Energy Progress, LLC. The topic is: Coal Ash
Disposal. And we are here pursuant to that Notice
in the Commission's hearing room, February 10th, at
10:30 in the morning.
Madam Chair, if I could just make one
programming note.
Folks, we are having construction and
remodeling done to our downstairs, so if you need
to find a restroom, head up the stairs and then
just keep going straight down the hall upstairs.
Thanks.
CHAIRMAN HALL: All riqht. Thank vou, Mr.
Melchers.
And who appears representing Duke Energy
Carolinas?
MS. SMITH: Heather Shirley Smith, on behalf
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of Duke Energy Carolinas and Duke Energy Progress.
CHAIRMAN HALL: Okay. Thank you.
And for ORS?
MR. NELSON: Good morning, Madam Chair. I'm
Jeff Nelson. I represent the Office of Regulatory
Staff as Mr. Dukes Scott's representative.
CHAIRMAN HALL: Okay, Mr. Nelson. And do you
have any remarks you wanted to give?
MR. NELSON: I do.
CHAIRMAN HALL: Okay.
MR. NELSON: Thank you, Madam Chair.
Typically, as I've tried to do in these,
recently at least, I'd just like to do a little
intro regarding procedures and everything, for some
people maybe that haven't been here before.
For those of you who don't know me, I'm Jeff
Nelson, and I'm the Chief Counsel for the Office of
Regulatory Staff, and I am here as the designee for
the Executive Director of the Office of Regulatory
Staff, this morning. As the ORS representative,
it's my duty to certify the proceedings here this
morning within 72 hours of them being concluded to
the Chief Clerk of the Public Service Commission,
so we operate on a fairly tight timeframe under the
statutory framework that allows these allowable ex
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partes.
The requirements of the statute are, in part,
the allowable ex parte be confined to the subject
matter which has been noticed for this here today,
and the subject matter noticed in this matter is
"Coal Ash Disposal." So I, therefore, ask the
presenters, the Commission, and the Staff to please
keep the subject related just to coal ash disposal
this morning.
Additionally, the statute prohibits
participants, Commissioners, or Commission Staff,
from requesting or giving any commitment,
predetermination, or prediction regarding any
action by the Commission as to any ultimate or
penultimate issue which either is or is likely to
come before the Commission. We, therefore, ask the
participants, Commissioners, and Staff, also, if
possible, to keep from trying to refer to any
additional documents or materials that aren't
included in the presentation. When you do that,
myself and Heather both have to try and pull this
stuff together at the last minute, so we'd ask, if
at all possible, that you try and refrain from
referencing any documents like that.
As a final note, I'd like to point out to
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everybody here: Y'all should've gotten, when you
came in today, a form at the table out here. You
should have both signed in for the Public Service
Commission and received a form. Good legal advice
always is: Read the form. Read anything before you
sign it. So, I would ask you to please read that,
make sure you sign that form, and then turn it in
before you leave today.
That's all I have, Madam Chair. Thank you.
CHAIRMAN HALL: Okay. Thank you.
If there's nothing further, then Mr. Ruhe, if
you want to go ahead with your presentation.
MIKE RUHE [DUKE ENERGY]: Thank you. All
right.
CHAIRMAN HALL: Yeah, if you can hit that
button and pull it closer, please.
MIKE RUHE [DUKE ENERGY]: [Indicating.] Yeah.
I see the lights now. Okay.
CHAIRMAN HALL: Okay.
MIKE RUHE [DUKE ENERGY]: All right. Good
morning, Commissioners.
[Reference: Presentation Slide 1]
My name is Mike Ruhe. I'm the Environmental
Policy & Affairs Director for Duke Energy here in
South Carolina. Thank you for the opportunity to
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provide this update on Duke Energy's coal ash
management activities here in the State. It's been
exactly one year since I was last here before you.
Since then, much scientific and engineering
work has been done at both our W.S. Lee and
Robinson Plants. The results of that work have
been shared with our regulators, and we worked
closely with them and our local communities to
finalize these ash basin closure strategies.
[Reference: Presentation Slide 2]
As you may recall, following the Dan River ash
release in February of 2014, the company initiated
a thorough engineering evaluation of all of its ash
basins and related piping systems across our fleet.
We are committed to the safe and reliable
operations of those basins until they're ultimately
closed.
We've been developing a comprehensive, longer-
term ash basin closure strategy for all of our ash
basins. While closing these basins has always been
part of our — of the company's vision, we have
substantially accelerated that work. Because
conditions at each site are unique, we believe that
effective closure approaches should be based on
site-specific science and engineering, and we've
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engaged some of the best experts in the country to
help us develop those protective closure
strategies.
These strategies must protect the public and
they must protect groundwater. Further, we must be
able to implement them safely. The results of this
work has helped the company shape its overall ash
management closure strategies for both Lee and
Robinson, and I'm pleased to be able to share this
update with you today.
So let's first take a look at what we're doing
at W.S. Lee.
[Reference: Presentation Slide 3]
To review, the Lee Steam Station was built in
1951. Units 1 and 2 were officially retired on
November 6, 2014. Unit 3 was converted from coal -
firing to natural gas last year. And construction
of the new 750 megawatt natural-gas combined -cycle
is well underway.
Recall that the station has two active ash
basins, a primary and secondary basin, and these
basins no longer receive coal ash or coal -ash waste
since those units are retired, but they do still
receive processed wastewater from the plant.
There's also a closed inactive basin from the
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1950s, an ash structural fill, and a former borrow
area where ash was placed years ago that is
referred to as the ash fill area.
Collectively, the site contains about 3.6
million tons of ash.
[Reference: Presentation Slide 4]
All right. Here's an overview picture of the
site. You can see — I'll point out a couple of
things. Hopefully, I don't shut the machine off.
CHAIRMAN HALL: Just don't touch it.
MIKE RUHE [DUKE ENERGY]: Yes. Here is the
primary basin we're talking about [indicating], the
secondary basin [indicating]. The structural fill
[indicating] is right here. The plant proper
[indicating]. The coal pile that's long been gone
[indicating]. Here [indicating] is the inactive
basin, right here; you can see the footprint here.
And then the ash fill area is down here
[indicating], just in the lower right corner. And,
of course, there's the Saluda River [indicating].
[Reference: Presentation Slide 5]
On September 23, 2014, the company announced
that ash from the closed inactive basin and that
ash fill area would be excavated and disposed of in
a lined solution. Duke Energy entered into an
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agreement with DHEC on September 29th of that year
to do this work, and submitted an Ash Removal Plan
to the agency on December 18th. We believe it will
take about three years to complete the removal of
the ash from these two areas.
The company selected Waste Management,
Incorporated, to excavate and transport ash from
these two areas to a fully lined, solid -waste
landfill located in Homer, Georgia. This landfill
is also operated by Waste Management. Trucks
started hauling that ash from the site on May 15th
of last year, and so far, just over 260,000 tons
have been excavated and transported off-site. That
total represents about 19.2 percent of the total
ash from those two areas.
[Reference: Presentation Slide 6]
Okay. And here, we just have highlighted
those two areas a little bit more, so you can get a
better idea of what we're talking about, you know.
It just shows that other side of the road, where
the ash fill area is.
[Reference: Presentation Slide 7]
All right. Here is an aerial view where —
let's see, the ash fill area [indicating]. The
inactive basin [indicating]. And, of course, in
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the foreground here is where land was cleared for
the natural gas combined -cycle plant.
[Reference: Presentation Slide 8]
All right. Here's the inactive basin after
the trees were cleared and the topsoil removed, and
you can see here, of course, the dark material is
coal ash.
[Reference: Presentation Slide 9]
Here is a view, an overhead view, of how we're
loading trucks at that site, and you can see we've
got trucks that drive in, do the little loop here,
and then backhoes are excavating ash and loading it
into the trucks. Then they drive around to an
automated truck wash, here, to help reduce dust,
and then tarps are put over the truck to make sure
no ash or dust gets off when it goes on the road.
[Reference: Presentation Slide 10]
Then the trucks would proceed out, and then
they're weighed to make sure that they're in spec.
on the weight. And then they go off on the road
towards Georgia.
[Reference: Presentation Slide 11]
Of course, here's the route that we take,
which is primarily Interstate highway.
The company worked closely with Waste
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Management, South Carolina DOT, and local municipal
officials to determine the best route, or the best
combination of haul routes, that would present the
least impact to the local public.
Obtaining meaningful community input was
important to us, because we realized we'd be
putting a lot of trucks on local roads as they left
the station. So we met with community leaders,
developed targeted messages for those neighbors,
providing them updates about our plans. You know,
we sent over 5000 letters to them through the mail
and hosted community meetings where we had our
project managers and subject -matter experts
available to answer any of their questions. We
also support a website, so interested parties can
get the latest information about that project. You
know, the information that we were able to get was
invaluable to us, as we have to determine what the
best routes to go from out of the — from leaving
the station.
[Reference: Presentation Slide 12]
Okay, let's turn to discuss the other basins
at the site. Recall on December 18, 2014, Duke
Energy communicated to DHEC its closure strategy
for the remaining ash, for the primary and
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secondary basins and the structural fill.
Now, based upon the results of that site-
specific engineering work, the company decided, at
that time, to excavate the ash from those two
areas, as well, and to relocate them in a fully
lined landfill. That analysis also explored
options for disposing of this remaining ash at the
Lee site. Duke Energy submitted a Conceptual
Closure Plan for these areas on December 15, 2015,
and that plan also included a design for a
potential on-site, lined landfill.
Currently, we are looking to site that
landfill on the footprint of the existing secondary
basin. Landfill siting studies are currently
underway and we anticipate submitting a Landfill
Permit Application to DHEC in October of this year.
[Reference: Presentation Slide 13]
All right. Here is a drawing of what we had
in that proposed — in that Closure Plan. You can
see the outline of the primary basin, secondary
basin, and the structural fill. Now, our plans
would be to drain the water out of the secondary
basin, which is in the upper left-hand corner, and
then what little ash was in there — because that
secondary basin doesn't contain much ash — remove
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that ash, put it in the primary basin, and then we
would reconfigure that footprint to make it
suitable for a landfill, and then line it, and then
remove all the ash from the primary basin and that
structural fill into that secondary basin
footprint, and then cap it and close it.
[Reference: Presentation Slide 14]
So what are the advantages of the proposed
closure strategy? Well, first and foremost, it
eliminates the existing impoundments. Second, it
consolidates the ash in a fully lined and capped
location in close proximity to those existing ash
management units, minimizing ash handling, and it
also reduces community impacts. Third, groundwater
is protected. That landfill will be lined and
capped, leachate will be collected, and we will
continue to perform groundwater monitoring to
ensure that these controls function as designed.
And, finally, we are eliminating the use of public
roads for hauling ash once that landfill is
operational. This is very important for our plant
neighbors.
[Reference: Presentation Slide 15]
Now, let's take a look at the Robinson Plant.
The Robinson coal unit was built in 1960 and
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retired in September of 2012. The second Robinson
unit is a 710 megawatt nuclear unit that continues
to operate. The Robinson ash management facility
includes a single -celled ash basin and what we are
calling the 1960 fill area. That area's located
just to the west of Units 1 and 2. The entire site
contains about 4.2 million tons of ash.
[Reference: Presentation Slide 16]
And here's an aerial view of the site. Just
to reorient you, the plant proper is down here —
here's the plant proper, right down here
[indicating]. The ash basin is up here
[indicating] in this footprint. Here is Lake
Robinson and the dam [indicating]. And the 1960
fill area — and I'll have another drawing to kind
of highlight it — is in this area right here
[indicating]. This part right here [indicating] is
the footprint for the Darlington County CT site.
That 72 -acre ash basin is comprised of a 49 -
acre basin, itself, and then a 23 -acre dry storage
area located just to the western part of that
basin. Ash thickness ranges anywhere between 11 to
53 feet. The surface of that ash basin is dry and
has been dry for several years.
[Reference: Presentation Slide 17]
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The 1960 fill area was created when the plant
started operating, and it received ash from Unit 1
until the current ash basin was constructed in the
mid -'70s. Duke Energy contracted with an outside
engineering firm in late 2013 to evaluate the
extent and volume of the ash stored in that area.
We've determined that this area covers
approximately 25 acres and holds an estimated
330,000 tons of ash.
Duke Energy entered into an agreement with
DHEC on July 17, 2015, to excavate the ash from
that area and relocate it to a proposed lined
landfill to be built on-site. Landfill siting
studies are currently underway for that landfill,
and we anticipate submitting a Class 3 Landfill
Permit Application to DHEC by April 1st.
The agreement we signed with DHEC requires us
to complete the excavation and removal of all ash
from this area within eight years.
[Reference: Presentation Slide 18]
Okay. And here's that extra drawing I was
showing you, zooming in on the plant a little bit.
It's a little bit faint, but you can get an idea of
where the boundary of that 1960 fill area is, right
underneath part of the transmission corridor there.
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[Reference: Presentation Slide 19[
So let's now take a look at the active basin
at Robinson. We conducted a number of geotechnical
studies in and around that basin and concluded,
again, that the best closure strategy would be to
excavate the ash from that area and relocate it to
a lined solution. That decision was communicated
to DHEC on April 30, 2015. A Conceptual Closure
Plan was submitted to the agency on November 13th,
and our plans are to dispose of this ash in the
same landfill that's being constructed for the 1960
ash -fill ash.
[Reference: Presentation Slide 20]
The location of the proposed landfill's on
Duke -Energy -owned land, on that adjacent Darlington
County combustion turbine site. You can see, the
square up there is the footprint of where we
propose to put the landfill.
[Reference: Presentation Slide 21]
The advantages of this proposed closure
strategy are very similar to those for W.S. Lee.
First, it eliminates the existing impoundment and
fill area. Second, it consolidates the ash on-site
in a fully lined, capped location that's in close
proximity to the existing ash management units.
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Third, groundwater is protected. Ash will be
removed and placed in an engineered landfill,
segregated from groundwater. Leachate, again, will
be collected, and we will perform groundwater
monitoring to ensure that these controls function
as designed. Finally, we'll be keeping ash trucks
off of public roads. We're looking into the
possibility of building either internal roads or
possibly a conveyor system to get ash from those
two areas to this new landfill.
[Reference: Presentation Slide 22]
As at W.S. Lee, we actively engaged the local
community and our plant neighbors to obtain
feedback about our site plans. We hosted community
meetings there, as well, making our project leaders
and subject -matter experts available to answer any
questions. At Robinson, we sent out almost 1000
letters to plant neighbors, providing them
information about the project. And like at Lee, we
have a public website that provides the most
current information about the project.
Our employees live in that community also, so,
you know, it's important to us to have all of our
plant neighbors be knowledgeable and comfortable
with the plans that we have at the site.
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[Reference: Presentation Slide 23]
So, in conclusion, Duke Energy is committed to
closing our ash basis. We will do this safely and
in a manner that protects the environment,
particularly groundwater. We will do it in a way
that minimizes the impacts to our communities, and
we will continue to work with our neighbors to keep
them informed on what we are doing. We will manage
these projects in a manner that controls cost.
And, finally, we will continue to work with DHEC to
ensure that we meet all of our — all required
regulatory standards.
Thank you, so much, for your time.
[Reference: Presentation Slide 24]
CHAIRMAN HALL: Thank you, Mr. Ruhe.
Commissioners, questions? Commissioner
Hamilton.
COMMISSIONER HAMILTON: Thank vou. Madam
Chair.
Happy to have you with us, today, sir, and we
certainly appreciate the update. At this present
time, are you on schedule with all DHEC
requirements and time limits, et cetera?
MIKE RUHE [DUKE ENERGY]: Yes, sir, we are.
COMMISSIONER HAMILTON: Have we experienced
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any fines in South Carolina, at this point?
MIKE RUHE [DUKE ENERGY]: We have not.
COMMISSIONER HAMILTON: Okay. So, as far as
DHEC is concerned, the project is totally on
schedule.
MIKE RUHE [DUKE ENERGY]: Yes, sir. We — the
project team meets with the technical folks over at
DHEC monthly, you know, to keep them updated and
because everything is really being fast -tracked,
you know, in their minds, so we're working very
closely with the agency to make sure all the
reviews are working on schedule to meet the
timeline.
COMMISSIONER HAMILTON: Thank you, very much.
Thank you, Madam Chair.
CHAIRMAN HALL: Thank you.
Commissioner Howard.
COMMISSIONER HOWARD: Good morning. Explain
to me what you mean by: still active as a
wastewater treatment system.
MIKE RUHE [DUKE ENERGY]: The plant has —
those ponds are considered NPDES — National
Pollutant Discharge System treatment systems, you
know, for wastewater, and are regulated by DHEC.
And so there are plant systems that still drain
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water — think floor sumps, that kind of thing, that
are still draining there. As part of the overall
new permit that we've got, that we're just now
getting from DHEC, you know, we will be closing all
that down, you know, when we close down the basins,
but we have to go over and have the new piping
systems all ready to go before we can shut down
that existing plant, because Unit 3 is still
operating as a natural gas plant.
COMMISSIONER HOWARD: Okay, thank you.
Commissioner Hamilton asked you about any fines in
South Carolina. What about fines about coal ash,
in general? How many fines have you procured or
are threatened with to have now for your coal ash
disposal?
MIKE RUHE [DUKE ENERGY]: There was the EPA
fine that was announced early last year for the
overall Dan River event. And then, in the press,
there was a North Carolina Department of
Environmental Quality fine for Dan River, also,
that was between $6-$7 million, you know, for that
event, too.
COMMISSIONER HOWARD: How much, total, were
they?
MIKE RUHE [DUKE ENERGY]: How much, total?
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COMMISSIONER HOWARD: Yeah, how many total
fines do you have?
MIKE RUHE [DUKE ENERGY]: Off the top of my
head, I do not know.
COMMISSIONER HOWARD: Well, how —
MIKE RUHE [DUKE ENERGY]: The EPA fine was, I
want to say, $100 million, you know, in that range.
COMMISSIONER HOWARD: How do you plan cost
recovery of these expenses?
MIKE RUHE [DUKE ENERGY]: I —
COMMISSIONER HOWARD: In other words, are you
planning to put them in rate base or not? That's
my question.
MIKE RUHE [DUKE ENERGY]: Closure of ash
basins, you know, since ash basins are part of the
NPDES treatment system, we've always viewed
eventual — we've always gone to eventual closure of
those basins. I'm not the person that's really in
a position to address rate questions. We'll have
someone else come back, you know, at that time,
when the time is right for that.
COMMISSIONER HOWARD: A hundred miles comes to
mind, but how long is the haul from this coal ash
at the disposal to the landfill in Homer, Georgia?
How long is that route?
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MIKE RUHE [DUKE ENERGY]: I believe it's 75
miles.
COMMISSIONER HOWARD: Thanks, very much.
CHAIRMAN HALL: Commissioner Whitfield.
VICE CHAIRMAN WHITFIELD: Thank you, Madam
Chair.
Thank you for this presentation. Appreciate
having you back here again, a year later, to update
us, and we appreciate you coming up to keep us
informed. And I've got just a couple of quick
questions. The Class 3 landfill that you said
you'll be submitting the permit application in
October of 2016, this year, when would that —
assuming you have the application in then, when
would that Class 3 landfill be operational at the
Lee facility?
MIKE RUHE [DUKE ENERGY]: It takes DHEC about
between three and five years to approve a landfill
and get it constructed, so that's why we've got
eight years to dispose of — well, we have eight
years to dispose of the ash from that one area.
VICE CHAIRMAN WHITFIELD: So three to five
years permitting, and another few years to —
MIKE RUHE [DUKE ENERGY]: And —
VICE CHAIRMAN WHITFIELD: — construct, so a
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total of roughly eight years, is —
MIKE RUHE [DUKE ENERGY]: That's correct.
VICE CHAIRMAN WHITFIELD: — what you're
looking at, before —
MIKE RUHE [DUKE ENERGY]: And that's been the
target that we've been working with DHEC, to try to
get it done in eight years.
VICE CHAIRMAN WHITFIELD: — before you would
have on-site —
MIKE RUHE [DUKE ENERGY]: Disposal capability.
VICE CHAIRMAN WHITFIELD: And that's just for
the active basins. The others, the inactive and
the ash fill pit, all that material is all what's
going to Homer, Georgia; is that correct?
MIKE RUHE [DUKE ENERGY]: At W.S. Lee, that's
correct.
VICE CHAIRMAN WHITFIELD: Okay, those two are
what's going to Homer, and the primary and
secondary — the active — are the ones that you
would be waiting to put in this new landfill on-
site.
MIKE RUHE [DUKE ENERGY]: That's correct.
VICE CHAIRMAN WHITFIELD: Okay. Now, how
about for the Robinson Plant? I see you're going
to have that application in here in about a month
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or so, in April. Is that on the same schedule,
again about eight years out?
MIKE RUHE [DUKE ENERGY]: Yes, sir.
VICE CHAIRMAN WHITFIELD: Okay. And,
obviously, it looks like, at Robinson, of course
you're dealing with a lot less tonnage of ash, but
you're going to be able to, as you said, do
something on-site, maybe even a conveyor belt, and
not actually have to put anything on the road, over
at the Robinson plant. Is that the way I'm hearing
it?
MIKE RUHE [DUKE ENERGY]: That's what we're
looking at. The decisions — the timeline decisions
were based upon, you know, working through the
investigation with DHEC. At W.S. Lee, there were
concerns about, you know, those ash storage areas.
The inactive landfill was very close to the river.
VICE CHAIRMAN WHITFIELD: Right.
MIKE RUHE [DUKE ENERGY]: And in discussions
with them, we did not feel that it was in a stable
situation for the long term, to wait until a
landfill was sited. So that's why that — that
determined the timeline there.
Over at Robinson, it's a different situation.
That 1960 fill area's not anywhere near the lake
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and it's a very stable ash placement. So they were
comfortable with the timeline of building a
landfill on-site.
VICE CHAIRMAN WHITFIELD: I see what you're
saying. The inactive basin is the one that's right
adjacent, like closest, to the Saluda River.
MIKE RUHE [DUKE ENERGY]: Yes, sir. It's
right close to the river and the dike is very steep
right there. And so, because of the age of that
basin, we were not as certain of the long-term
stability, you know, until that time. You know, it
was all heavily overgrown with trees, and our
engineering folks did not think it was a stable
configuration, long term, to wait that long.
VICE CHAIRMAN WHITFIELD: I noticed that the
tonnage you expect to move from Lee — I don't have
that page right now, but I think it was 1.4 million
tons — here it is — and you've moved not quite 20
percent, 19 -point -something. And it looks like the
timeline you're on, you're somewhat on target. Are
you under a three-year contract with them to do
that? Or is it an annual thing you continue to
renew as the work gets done, as the ash gets
hauled? Or what obligation are you under, if you
could discuss that?
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MIKE RUHE [DUKE ENERGY]: Well, we signed a
consent agreement with DHEC, and that set up the
timeline to go over and have that ash moved. And
so we secured the trucking and everything else to
accommodate that. And so, you know, our plans are
to get it done within that three years.
VICE CHAIRMAN WHITFIELD: And, of course, it's
early, but it does look like you're somewhat on
target —
MIKE RUHE [DUKE ENERGY]: That's correct.
VICE CHAIRMAN WHITFIELD: — from your
percentages. Well, thank you, Mr. Ruhe. That's
all I have.
CHAIRMAN HALL: Thank you.
Commissioner Fleming.
COMMISSIONER FLEMING: Good morning, Mr. Ruhe.
Nice to have you here today.
MIKE RUHE [DUKE ENERGY]: Thank you.
COMMISSIONER FLEMING: Commissioner Howard
asked several of the questions that I wanted to
ask, so — but I did want to go a little farther
about how it will be paid for, the cleanup. And
you've talked about the tariff has been used in the
past, so the consumer would be the one responsible
for paying for the cleanup. But what about the
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fines?
MIKE RUHE [DUKE ENERGY]: With all the
cleanup, you know, that went with the Dan River —
you know, to be honest, I'm a technical person.
I've never really dealt with anything with the
fines or that, so I don't have an answer for that.
Heather, though, evidently does.
[Laughter]
MS. SMITH: Commissioner Fleming, we have
stated before, publicly, that we would not seek
recovery of those fines associated with the subject
matter from ratepayers. And we'd be happy to
provide a written statement to that effect,
articulating that position, for the Commission, in
conjunction with this ex parte presentation.
COMMISSIONER FLEMING: Okay. And do you
confirm, though, that you are planning to request
the cleanup recovery in tariffs?
MS. SMITH: We would request recovery for our
activities, our prudent activities, related to ash
disposal — not the fines, but those other
activities. And we've publicly stated that, and we
can include that language in anything we file with
the Commission, as well.
COMMISSIONER FLEMING: So the shareholders
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will assume the responsibility for any fines.
MS. SMITH: Yes.
COMMISSIONER FLEMING: Okay. I know you had a
limited timeframe, I believe in North Carolina, to
remove the ash.
MIKE RUHE [DUKE ENERGY]: [Nodding head.]
COMMISSIONER FLEMING: And as a result of
that, you said, as I recall, that that was a reason
not to do recycling or reprocess of that ash, that
there just wasn't enough time. Am I correct in
that?
MIKE RUHE [DUKE ENERGY]: In this
presentation, I didn't say anything —
COMMISSIONER FLEMING: No, no, no, no. In the
past.
MIKE RUHE [DUKE ENERGY]: The plants that we
have in North Carolina are different than the ones
we have in South Carolina. You know, our South
Carolina plants were older plants. They did not
have all of the pollution control agreement;
they're not continuing to operate. So, you know,
all our ash is sitting in ponds.
To make ash suitable for recycling, you know,
we would — there would have to be, in many cases,
carbon burnout, or this, that — different
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technologies done to make it suitable. And because
our volumes, in the grand scheme of things, are
very low at these two plants, economically it's not
feasible.
Now if you looked to the larger plants that
have scrubbers and continue to operate, there are
companies out there that will partner with
utilities to go over and make ash more amenable to
being recycled. But it's more difficult to do with
ash that — you know, it's not worth many recyclers'
time to set up an operation to do these types of
volumes.
COMMISSIONER FLEMING: So you would not be
doing recycling or —
MIKE RUHE [DUKE ENERGY]: We don't anticipate
doing any recycling of this ash.
COMMISSIONER FLEMING: — or reprocessing,
because of the cost factor.
MIKE RUHE [DUKE ENERGY]: Because of the cost,
that's right.
COMMISSIONER FLEMING: Okay. And I wanted to
also go back — could you talk some more about the
"active as a wastewater treatment" — and, I mean,
because as I understood what you said, there is
coal ash in that, as well, correct?
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MIKE RUHE [DUKE ENERGY]: Right.
COMMISSIONER FLEMING: And what are your plans
for those that are still active?
MIKE RUHE [DUKE ENERGY]: In South Carolina?
Or in North Carolina?
COMMISSIONER FLEMING: South Carolina.
MIKE RUHE [DUKE ENERGY]: Well, I mean, you
know, we still have active NPDES permits at both
Robinson and W.S. Lee. Both those ash basins are
still included in those permits. Part of the
Conceptual Closure Plans for those sites are a
requirement from DHEC to go over and close those
ash management units. That's why we submitted
them. And so we're going through closure right
now, and then that — and once they're closed, they
will be removed from the permit.
COMMISSIONER FLEMING: Okay. So there won't
be ash ponds —
MIKE RUHE [DUKE ENERGY]: There'll be no —
COMMISSIONER FLEMING: — once you've —
MIKE RUHE [DUKE ENERGY]: — ash ponds left.
COMMISSIONER FLEMING: — finished this, so
they'll —
MIKE RUHE [DUKE ENERGY]: That's correct.
COMMISSIONER FLEMING: — be totally —
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everything will be totally cleaned up.
MIKE RUHE [DUKE ENERGY]: They'll be totally
cleaned up. In fact, the last step will be, you
know, analysis of the ground that's left, and it
has to meet the criteria that DHEC sets for us, you
know, to say that "You're done."
COMMISSIONER FLEMING: I guess my confusion is
the fact that you can continue to use it — that
they continue to be active at the present time.
MIKE RUHE [DUKE ENERGY]: Well, I mean,
they're active until they're removed —
COMMISSIONER FLEMING: Uh-huh?
MIKE RUHE [DUKE ENERGY]: — you know, from the
permit. And since they're still on the permit,
we're still sampling them.
COMMISSIONER FLEMING: So there's been no
contamination, no —
MIKE RUHE [DUKE ENERGY]: No —
COMMISSIONER FLEMING: — release, as far as —
MIKE RUHE [DUKE ENERGY]: You know, as
processed water or rainwater or storm water goes
into the pond, we do monitor those, and they are
released like they were before, as long as they're
within the specifications of our permit. But
there's been no coal ash going to them for — you
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know, since those plants stopped operating.
COMMISSIONER FLEMING: Okay. And you're
saying that both Lake Robinson and the Saluda River
are — the measures that you're taking are
protecting both of those water sources.
MIKE RUHE [DUKE ENERGY]: Yes, ma'am.
COMMISSIONER FLEMING: Okay.
MIKE RUHE [DUKE ENERGY]: And groundwater, as
well.
COMMISSIONER FLEMING: Okay. Thank you.
CHAIRMAN HALL: Commissioner Elam.
COMMISSIONER ELAM: Good morning. Just one
question out of curiosity, I guess. On 17 and 18
of the presentation, you were talking about the
1960 fill area.
MIKE RUHE [DUKE ENERGY]: Right.
COMMISSIONER ELAM: And on the picture, you
had the fill area where the transmission corridor
from the plant went right through it.
MIKE RUHE [DUKE ENERGY]: [Nodding head.]
COMMISSIONER ELAM: When you're excavating
that, is that going to impact the operation of the
plant? Are you going to have to move the
transmission lines to keep the plant running, or...
MIKE RUHE [DUKE ENERGY]: We will have to
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coordinate that activity with plant operations.
And we've had discussions with the agency about
that.
34
COMMISSIONER ELAM: Okay. I just — it didn't
seem like you could dig around it.
[Laughter]
Okay, thank you.
CHAIRMAN HALL: Commissioner Whitfield.
VICE CHAIRMAN WHITFIELD: Thank you, Madam
Chairman.
Mr. Ruhe, I've just got one quick follow-up on
what we were talking about, about the ash that you
are removing from the Lee facility and hauling to
Homer, Georgia. Now that Ms. Smith has been real
clear on what would be paid for by the shareholders
and what would be paid for, or sought for payment,
by the ratepayers, since you're doing this work
kind of, as you would say, proactively, not as a
result of any fine or not a fine in effect, and as
we talked about the tonnage, you were on a
percentage of almost 20 percent right now being
hauled out of that facility, I guess what I was
getting at when I asked you was the contract under
a year, or three years — and if it's a contractual
matter and you can't say, just let me know, but my
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concern is, when you're dealing with a bulk item
like ash and as you start to remove it, naturally,
you're going to pick up dirt and other particles,
and that 1.4 million tons might end up being 1.7
million tons or, you know, more than what you're
estimating here, and if you find yourself a year or
so down the road slipping in that percentage and as
you get closer to finishing getting the remaining
amounts, cleaning up all of the ash, naturally,
that bulk item might be a little bigger than you
think it is. And what is your out, I guess, since
if you're going to potentially come seek recovery
for this one day, what are you doing to manage the
costs of this removal and transporting of this ash
into Georgia?
MIKE RUHE [DUKE ENERGY]: The volume of ash
that's in that basin is just an estimate. You
know, there weren't records really kept in those
days to say how much was in there. So we've done
geotechnical studies, probing, sticking probes in
the ground and then just doing the math to figure
out what an estimate of the tonnage would be. The
timeline and the closure — the clean closure —
requirements, you know, are outlined in the order
that we have from DHEC.
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VICE CHAIRMAN WHITFIELD: In the consent
36
order.
MIKE RUHE [DUKE ENERGY]: Yes, in the consent
order. So we're going to follow the requirements
of that.
VICE CHAIRMAN WHITFIELD: Well, I get —
MIKE RUHE [DUKE ENERGY]: Now, as far as the
details of how our contract is set up with Waste
Management, I do not know those details.
VICE CHAIRMAN WHITFIELD: Okay. Well, and I
get that you have to abide by the DHEC consent
order. I just wondered if there were any recourses
you have if you see yourself slipping in where you
need to be on the removal of that tonnage, or if
that tonnage — you said it was an estimated number,
1.4 million tons — if it ends up being more than
that, or for whatever reason — you know, I know
when you're dealing with a bulk item, it's hard to
get your arms around that sometimes. And I just
wondered if you had any — if Duke had any
management or oversight of that, to kind of manage
where you are. And I do see your percentages here
and you appear to be on target, but who knows if
you're going to stay with that or slip or where you
may be in the future, or what your recourse might
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be if you do.
MIKE RUHE [DUKE ENERGY]: We've got a
dedicated organization that is managing that
project and has folks at the site, you know, to
follow it. And I think right now we're probably
doing 100 trips a day, you know, going back and
forth.
VICE CHAIRMAN WHITFIELD: Right.
MIKE RUHE [DUKE ENERGY]: We believe that
there's enough time in that timeline to go over and
get it done within three years, you know, with the
give or take. There were even some delays in the
timeline just because of the heavy rains, both on
our end and those rains hit Homer, Georgia, as
well, and the landfills were closed for a week at a
time. So, you know, we're working aggressively to
go over and stay as close to that schedule as we
can.
VICE CHAIRMAN WHITFIELD: Well, thank you —
MIKE RUHE [DUKE ENERGY]: And we think we can
do it in the three years. We don't want to go back
before DHEC and ask for an extension.
VICE CHAIRMAN WHITFIELD: Well, I guess we'll
know more at your next update. Thank you.
Thank you, Madam Chair.
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CHAIRMAN HALL: Thank you.
Commissioners, any other questions?
[No response]
Okay. Thank you, so much, for your
presentation, Mr. Ruhe, and Ms. Smith, for assuring
us that the fines will be absorbed by the
shareholders. I think we breathe easier, hearing
that.
And if there's nothing else, then we are
adjourned.
[WHEREUPON, at 11:20 a.m., the
proceedings in the above -entitled matter
were adjourned.]
PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION OF SOUTH CAROLINA
2/10/16

ALLOWABLE EX PARTE DEC and DEP / Coal Ash Disposal Update 39
BRIEFING
C E R T I F I C A T E
I, Jo Elizabeth M. Wheat, CVR-CM-GNSC, do hereby
certify that the foregoing is, to the best of my skill and
ability, a true and correct transcript of all the proceedings
had in an Allowable Ex Parte Proceeding held before THE
PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION OF SOUTH CAROLINA in Columbia,
South Carolina, according to my verbatim record of same.
Given under my hand this 10th day of February,
2016.
Jo Elizabeth M. Wheat, CVR-CM/M-GNSC
Court Reporter
2/10/16
PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION OF SOUTH CAROLINA