20150042 Ver 1 _DENR Public Hearing Pittsboro 04.16.15 _20150508

NC DENR
Public Hearing 04.16.2015
Ambrose: Jeannie Ambrose
Bass: Shelton Bass
Bodrie: Sheila Bodrie
Carlson: Christine Carlson
Chiosso: Elaine Chiosso, Haw Riverkeeper, Executive Director
Cook: Dr. Charles Cook, MD
Crawley: Dawn Crawley
Cricker: Maya Cricker
Cross: John Cross, Vice Chair President Chatham County NAACP Branch #5377
Culpepper: Linda Culpepper, Director of the State Division of Waste Management
Dallas: Larry Dallas
Davis: Tracy E. Davis, DEMLR Director
Duclos: Danielle Duclos
Featherstone: Gerald Featherstone
Gallagher: Jane Gallagher
Garvet: Thelma Sharon Garvet
Girolami: Martha Girolami
Hales: Diana Hales, Chatham County Commissioner
Henry: Carol Henry
Hogan: Judy Hogan
Horn: Mary Phyllis Horn
Hutchby: Elizabeth Hutchby
Jackson: Arlene Jackson
Jones: Jim Jones
Lauffer: Laura Lauffer
Luxton: Terica Luxton
Ocampo: Danielle Ocampo
Perkins: Mary Ann Perkins
Poe: Susan Poe
Simpson: Gary Simpson
Starkweather:Jeffrey Starkweather
Strickland: Donna Strickland
Vick: Therese Vick, Blue Ridge Environmental Defense League
Voller: Randy Voller
Wagner: John Wagner
Wakefield: Debbie Wakefield
Wall: Marvin Wall
Watkins: Jason Watkins, Division of Waste Management
G. Whitley Dr. Gwen Whitley
R. Whitley: Rhonda Whitley
Wood: Nick Wood, NC WARN
M /F: Unidentified Male /Female Speaker

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0:11 Watkins: Okay, will the public hearing please come to order. Before we
begin this evening I'll just ask that everyone in the room either turn
off or silence your cell phones, pagers, as a courtesy to all the
speakers so everyone can hear. My name is Jason Watkins. I have
been appointed the hearing officer for the North Carolina
Department of Environment and Natural Resources. I am the field
operations branch head for the Division of Waste Management
solid waste section.
0:43 This hearing is being held under the authority of the Coal
Ash Management Act of 2014, the Mining Act of 1971, and Title
15A of the North Carolina administrative code chapter 021-1.0504.
This is a combined public hearing for the Division of Water
Resources 401 water quality certification; the Division of Energy,
Mineral, and Land Resources draft modified 90 permits; and the
Division of Waste Management's draft structural fill permits
needed by Green Meadows, LLC and Charah, Inc. in order to reuse
coal ash at the Colon Mine site [ph] in Lee County and the
Brickhaven Number Two Mine Track A [ph] here in Chatham
County.
1:29 The purpose of this hearing is to obtain public comment on
all four draft permits and the certification. A written record of
these proceedings will be prepared for entry into the public record.
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For this reason the audio of this hearing is being recorded. Written
comments received by May 16th 2015 will also be included as part
of the record. Written comments may be submitted to the email
address or postal addresses found on the handouts that were
available at the registration desk in the lobby. Equal weight will
be given to both oral and written comments.
2:06 At this time I would like to introduce representatives from
the department of environment and natural resources as well as any
elected officials that are present tonight. From the department we
have Mr. Tracy Davis, director of the State Division of Energy,
Mineral, and Land Resources. And Mrs. Linda Culpepper, the
director of the State Division of Waste Management. There are
several other DENR staff that were downstairs registering you
guys. And then there's also DENR staff here in the box and on the
first row or two there. Are there any local government officials in
attendance? If you could please stand. Thank you.
2:49 So at this time we'll hear from the audience members who
have signed up to speak tonight. To ensure that we hear from all
who wish to speak there will be a three minute time limit for
providing comments. The staff will keep track of time and raise a
sign to indicate when you have one minute left, 30 seconds left,
and when your time is up. Please keep your comments concise and
limit them to tonight's subject.
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3:13 Comments that address specific scientific or technical
points of the draft permits will be most useful in our review
process. If possible, speakers are asked to also provide a written
copy of their comments. Like we did on Monday night, if in event
we have time left at the end we may allow you to speak further
than the three minutes, but we'll see how that goes.
3:36 Cross examination of the speakers will not be allowed. I
may ask clarification questions if needed. We ask that everyone
respect the right of others to speak without interruption. To ensure
that everyone has a clear view of the proceedings we ask that you
refrain from waving signs in the meeting area. We may at the end
of the meeting ask for all of you who have signs to gather down in
the lobby so that we can take pictures and enter those into the
public records as well.
4:07 I will now call on speakers in the order that they registered
[ph]. To ensure that our records are accurate when you step to the
podium please clearly state your name and, if applicable, the
organization you're representing. And I will note tonight just to
make sure everybody can hear you and it gets entered into the
record, when you speak to that microphone try to speak directly in
the direction of the microphone itself. No more than—no more
than probably eight to ten inches away. It's pretty sensitive, so
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4:38 So we will start our first speaker for the night is Gary
Simpson.
4:47 Simpson: Good evening. My name is Gary Simpson. If your name is Duke
and you live in North Carolina these days everybody is paying
close attention to the way that you play your game. Some of you
are wearing a cap on your head that says you're a champion while
the others are simply trying to cover your ash by heaving coals on
other people's heads.
5:11 When I played basketball a long time ago the scoreboard in
our gymnasium was made by a company called Fair Play. And
every time we looked up at the score we saw the name of that
company as the bottom line of the scoreboard. Because the game
of life is a lot bigger than the game of basketball people are
coming here tonight to this courthouse to plead their case for fair
play. We've come to ask Duke Energy, the biggest and baldest
kid on the energy playground, to look up at the scoreboards that
they power and see the light, see that fair play is still the bottom
line.
5:48 Game plans and business plans should play to the bottom
line of moral and ethical conduct. They should benefit the
common good, the health and the wellbeing of all not just the
corporate profits of the few. The irresponsible unloading and
subsequent dumping of one's toxic waste into somebody else's
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backyard under the guise of doing them a favor is not fair play; it's
foul play.
6:18 It's foul play to treat people and the environment that
sustains them as collateral damage in the - means - justifies- the -ends
game of corporate profitability. It's foul play to wash one's dirty
hands of toxic ash by loading that responsibility unto [ph] —for the
management and for the disposal of it to a nebulous LLC that when
push comes to shove will do nothing, no responsibility when the
toxins hit the fan. The citizens, the flora, the fauna, the air, the
water, and the lands of Chatham County deserve better than that.
We don't deserve to reap this whirlwind of the foul wind that Duke
Energy has knowingly sown throughout its history of burning coal
to make a profit.
7:03 So if the largest corporate energy player on the planet
won't play fair what do you do? That means the officials who are
charged to govern the conduct of the game justly must call the
fouls and must reap the consequences and lest that game becomes
a criminal charade. So while the ash hole that Duke has dug for
itself is deep, and the finding out is a complex dilemma, the plea
tonight of the people is simple and can be best maybe summarized
in the three -part formula for fair play that the prophet Micah
ushered [ph] so long ago when he said this: "Do what is just.
Lavish others with kindness and compassion. And walk with
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humility and reverence in the Deity's creation." Thank you for
your time and attention. Now, let's do the right thing.
8:01 [APPLAUSE]
8:08 Watkins: Donna Strickland [ph]?
8:16 Strickland: Donna Strickland, 1708 Woodridge Drive Sanford. In the 1890s
an amazing technology was invented, the X -ray. Imagine being
able to see inside the body with cutting into it. The public went
wild for X -rays, and soon X -ray machines showed up everywhere.
They were most popular in shoe stores until someone noticed that
the shoe salesmen were becoming sick and dying from radiation
exposure.
8:43 In the 1940s America was involved in World War II.
Watches that glowed in the dark were needed for our fighting men,
so factories of women were established to paint luminescent paint
in the numbers of the watch faces. The women would lick their
brushes to maintain a fine point. It was when someone realized the
women were losing their teeth and dying from radiation exposure
that regulations were put on the use of radium laced luminescent
paint.
9:13 In the 1960s and '70s the tobacco industry was brought to
task for the toxic chemicals found in their products when someone
realized the relationships of cancer and heart and lung disease were
associated with smoking.
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9:29 Finally, my point. These three products made by
respectable companies, widely used, and legally sold were later
found to be detrimental to the health of the public. It was when
someone stood up for the public's rights that a stop was put on the
sale of or regulation on these products was achieved. DENR and
the Army Corps of Engineers, you must be that someone for the
people of Brickhaven, Colon, and Osgood [ph].
9:55 Walking across a coal ash pit and sifting coal ash through
your fingers is not going to hurt you. It's an accumulative effect; it
is breathing coal ash dust 24/7, eating food grown in contaminated
soil, and drinking water poisoned by its leachate. But to be
perfectly honest, it's not the coal ash that's the problem but the
heavy metals buried within its particles. At only I% of eight
million tons, we are looking at 160 million pounds of heavy metals
at the Colon site and Brickhaven's twelve millions of coal ash, at
240 million pounds, why would anyone allow 400 million pounds
of heavy metals dumped into the Cape Fear River Basin?
10:40 Again, DENR and Army Corps of Engineers, you must be
the someone who tells Duke Energy that their plan to bring 20
million tons of coal ash to Lee and Chatham counties is
unacceptable. Duke Energy can't fix their problem by creating
two new problems. We need you to demand Duke Energy to leave
their coal ash problem and fix it at the original sites. We need you
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to not issue these permits. And we need you to be our someone.
Thank you.
11:09 [APPLAUSE]
11:16 Watkins: Our next speaker, Arlene Jackson [ph].
11:25 Jackson: Good evening. My name is Arlene Jackson. I'm a citizen in Lee
County. We should study history because we can learn a lot from
our mistakes in order to avoid making the same mistakes in the
future. Duke Energy is trying to convince us that these two new
coal ash landfills will be different and better than all the rest. They
use terms like "state of the art" or "model facility." Their experts
have determined what they think is best for Duke's bottom line.
Hmm. They must think we are a bunch of uneducated Southern
dummies.
11:59 All of their coal ash dumps leak. What are they doing
differently this time around so that they won't keep repeating the
same mistakes and continue to pollute our environment? Duke
Energy cannot keep us in the dark forever because we have the
internet, and knowledge is power. Let's look back in history to
April of 2000 to a little town named Town of Pines in Indiana. It
is very similar to Brickhaven, Colon, and Osgood. It's just an
ordinary little town where hard working people live and raise their
families. Then the residents discovered that their drinking water
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had been contaminated by coal ash that had been put into an
improperly lined landfill for 19 years.
12:44 The coal ash was on a shallow aquifer that provided
drinking water to the town. This landfill was located on what was
originally a swampy area. Residents began to notice that their
water looked and tasted funny. The State of Indiana knew this site
had been leaking contaminates into the creek and groundwater
since 1980. "Shhh." They kept this secret for 20 years, until the
people uncovered the truth. As of today, 14 landfill monitoring
wells and 56 private wells have been contaminated by the heavy
metals and are causing serious health problems in this town. Their
landfill contains just one million tons of ash, but our two counties
will be getting 20 million tons total.
13:35 In 2002 it became clear that IDEM, or the Indiana
Department of Environmental Management, was not going to do
anything, so the residents formed a group called PINES, which
means People in Need of Environmental Safety. They hired an
expert to analyze technical monitoring ports [ph], and they filed a
class- action lawsuit.
13:58 The story of the Town of Pines teaches us the lessons of
failed environmental policies at both the state and federal level. It
is a story of a community of citizens deeply harmed, whose public
officials only offered indifference, arrogance, and ignorance. The
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townspeople did not think their plight was a done deal; they stood
up and refused to accept their fate. It is a story meant to inspire
action not just in their town but in our town, nationally to ensure
responsibility and environmentally safe disposal practices for coal
ash.
14:35 Duke Energy must learn from the history and not repeat the
same mistakes that occurred in the Town of Pines. We as citizens
can't and won't let it happen to us. DENR, I'm asking you today
not to approve the permits. Tell Duke and Charah to do their
homework and read Closing the Floodgates and come up with an
environmentally safe plan. And maybe what happened in the
Town of Pines will not repeat itself here. Thank you.
15:02 M: Thank you.
[APPLAUSE]
15:09 Watkins: Our next speaker, Dawn Crawley.
15:22 Crawley: My name is Dawn Crawley, and I live at 2930 Colon Road directly
at ground zero for the dump in Lee County. Moving the coal ash is
not an answer to the problem. It's like putting a Band -Aid on a
staph infection. You just leave a trail of pus across the state when
the trains run and the coal ash flies out and they put it in there and
the problems —it's not fixing the problems.
15:46 They make people say this is politics; it's caused by big
money. But this is our lives they are ruining. This is a residential
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and farming community. It's not somewhere out in the sticks. It's
a violation of our constitutional rights. We have the right to life,
liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. They're taking that away.
The governor and DENR should protect the people and the
environment. Once it's polluted there's no way to truly clean it up.
It's too late. No amount of money can fix it once the people are
sick and dying of cancer.
16:21 Duke says the fines they are getting for pollution are
excessive and unnecessary. Dumping coal ash on our lives and our
back doors is very excessive and unnecessary. Let's see. The
toxic leachate that they would [ph] have to go through the
wastewater treatment plant. Well, the wastewater treatment plant
in Lee County is upstream from the water treatment plant, so they
don't really have the facilities to get all the heavy metals out.
We're going to send this—if they put this in we'll send it back to
Wilmington because it's in the Cape Fear aquifer plus the rivers
and go back through the Cape Fear, so we're going to send it back
to Wilmington and the heavy metals through everybody in-
between. Thank you.
17:08 [APPLAUSE]
17:16 Watkins: Shelton Bass [ph].
17:23 Bass: Hello. I'm Shelton Bass. I live at 2930 Colon Road. This
morning we had a new donkey born on the farm. But what am I
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going to do in months if they bring this coal ash here and I've got
to sell all my little donkeys because I don't want them eating the
grass and drinking the water out of my pond. I've got a coal ash
dump that'll be 1,000 feet behind my house. Nobody wants it.
17:44 I also built the model that's downstairs for y'all to see. I
worked in construction for 40 years. Been in coal ash before.
Didn't know what it was. They didn't tell us no PPE [ph] for it.
We were just taking out stuff on . So that's what they do.
They cover it up. They don't tell you what you're in when you're
doing it. I didn't know it was deadly. I just knew it stinks.
18:04 Coal ash, you can taste it. It has a smell that you can
actually taste. It's nasty. But I don't want to smell it every day.
Because if I'm smelling it I'm sure it's blowing through my house
and it's getting in my lungs. Working in it on a job and you're
there for a couple hours and then you don't have to be at that job
[ph]. That's one thing. But as Dawn [ph] said, if I've got live in it
every day 24/7, it's going to kill me. You know. It's going to kill
everybody around me. The water, the air, you know. As they say,
we need air to live. That's the first thing we need. We need water.
That's the second thing. And then food. Well, you're
contaminating the air, the water, and the food. There'll be nothing
good in Lee County. It's nothing. And also at Brickhaven and
Moncure.
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18:51 There's already coal ash dumps in Moncure. Clean them
up. Fix it right there. Don't move it. When you move something
what you left behind is contaminated. And where you take it to is
contaminated. We've got the mostif you go to the mountains
we've got DuPont Forest, the most beautiful waterfalls in North
Carolina. I love it. Right dead center is a DuPont plant, 400 acres
contaminated. Stay off of it. In the middle of the most beautiful
land in North Carolina. That's what I'm telling you.
19:22 When they left it they left it 75 years ago. So what are we
going to do? I'm going to wait 75 years? I won't even be alive 75
years from now. I don't want to die any earlier though because of
coal ash coming into my back yard or anyone's back yard. And
anyone that's on the other side of canyon [ph], it's going to get you
too. As Dawn said, it's going to go through the water system. It's
going to leach into the ground.
19:46 It's going to evaporate. It gets wet; the sun will pick up
evaporation. I don't know what [ph] heavy metal particles do. I
just know water evaporates. It comes back down on you again.
We might have acid rain again. And watch trees start dying. We
cleaned that up years ago. That's why the coal ash is such a
problem. We cleaned up the air, but the chemicals were left in the
coal ash instead of burning them and putting them in the air.
Thank you very much.
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20:08 [APPLAUSE]
20:16 Watkins: Our next speaker, Judy Hogan.
20:32 Hogan: My name is Judy Hogan. I'd like dedicate my speech to Patrick
Barnes who died Saturday. If he was here he'd be fighting coal
ash with us.
20:43 I live in Moncure, a wonderful community. I moved here
to my first owned home 16 years ago and immediately began to
fight, first against the low -level nuclear dump, then against three
landfills, then to stop our air pollution which DENR had neglected
for ten years. A lot of people I knew here 16 years ago have died
since, many of cancer.
21:07 I fought to get Progress Energy to stop shipping nuclear
waste by train through our community. I fought to keep fracking
out of North Carolina. In the process I met and came to love the
diverse people here my Moncure, most of whom still hold to that
traditional American way among country people of helping each
other. I've had good neighbors, and we made friends as we
worked to save our community from environmental injustice.
21:33 Now we fight Duke Energy's plan to force us to have
twelve million tons of coal ash transported past our homes,
businesses, churches, and farms. We know it shouldn't be moved
or get into our air, water, or onto our land. We know it would kill
us off, babies first. We know that Duke doesn't admit to how
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22:28
22:45 [APPLAUSE]
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lethal coal ash is. We hear the word games. "Here's a glass of
water. This is the leachate from the Asheville Airport site. It's too
clean for a wastewater treatment plant." No mention of the lead,
mercury, arsenic, selenium, and other heavy metals in that glass of
water. It isn't the organic waste that will kill us but the inorganic,
those murderous chemicals you can't see. No amount of wetting
the ash or spraying [ph] with it, as we've noticed when Duke's
coal ash ponds down at the Cape Fear plant got dry and blew coal
ash all over the road people were traveling
Anyway, these chemicals will not keep it from drying out
and blowing on a hot windy day after a journey of 150 miles. We
don't trust Duke, Charah, or Green Meadows. If Duke wants to be
a good neighbor, let them pay for their own neglect of their coal
ash ponds all over North Carolina and treat the
22:49 Hogan: —treat the good people of Chatham and Lee counties as if they
weren't ruling us in a totalitarian mode, turning our meadows and
streams black. Please come if you can to the state press conference
of many groups in North Carolina fighting coal ash problems
Monday April 20th 1:00 p.m. in front of the legislature building in
Raleigh. Thank you.
23:10 [APPLAUSE]
23:21 Watkins: Mary Phyllis Horn.
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23:40 Horn: My name is Mary Phyllis Horn, and I live in Pittsboro. General
Eisenhower said to our nation at the end of his presidency—he
talked to us and warned us about the rising military complex in our
country. That if we didn't do something to curb that we as a nation
would be in a lot of trouble. Millions of us took his message to be
literal. What we did not realize were the effects of a military
attitude and belief system on our collective psyche.
24:23 Know that beliefs and attitudes are revealed in our words
and actions. Actions speak louder than words. They also reveal
the truth of our attitudes. The oil, gas, and coal industries are at
war against we humans in this country. Here are some of the
idioms they have taken from the military: an erroneous belief that
good businessmen have a killer instinct. War kills.
24:55 War and these industries pollute air and water and destroy
the environment. War is okay with there being collateral damage
of causing suffering and death to the humans. These industries feel
the same way. War and these industries cause people and animals
to flee as refugees. War is chaos. There is no moral stance and no
concern for consequences of their actions. These industries have
the same attitude.
25:30 War uses camouflage. Industries lie. Both lying and
camouflage appear to be one thing while the truth is something
else. These industries have declared war on us people and the
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environment. They must be held accountable. They need a
dramatic improvement in attitude. A major part of their current
attitude is that the mind is good and the heart is weak. They state
that the heart has no place in the corporate world. Well, granted,
the heart without connection to the mind does do foolish things.
On the other hand the mind without connection to the heart is
cruel.
26:18
To see the truth and to decide wisely we must link the heart
with the mind. I urge the DENR to join your heart and mind as
you listen to everyone else here tonight. Listen carefully and want
to know the truth. Get to know our genuine concerns and take
them seriously. We are not these industries' enemy, but we do
stand up for ourselves and we will stand up to them. We know the
coal ash has to be contained, yet it must be done in the right way.
And we ask the DENR [ph] to hold tight reins on the way in which
the coal ash will be sequestered without hurting us and the
environment.
27:01 [APPLAUSE]
27:10 Watkins: Our next speaker, Larry Dallas [ph].
27:22 Dallas: Thanks very much. My name is Larry Dallas. I live on the eastern
side of Chatham County. It's kind of difficult to follow all these
speakers. They really have valid points. And I'm a little
concerned myself with the coal ash, but I don't live directly near it.
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I live upwind from it probably. But I just wonder what would
happen if someone by the name of Tesla was never born. We
would never have an AC, alternating current. We'd never have
electricity as we know it today. We'd never have a demand by
people, all people that use electricity, for cheap electricity. And
it's the reason that we have pollution today such as coal ash is
because people demanded cheap electricity. And it's been going
on longer than the oldest person here. We've had lots of —lots of
people using coal for burning to run our electricity for years longer
than people have been here.
28:25 And now we end up with the consequences as pollution.
We didn't know it was pollution when it was being produced, just
like the X -rays; we didn't know the X -rays were going to hurt
people when they were introduced. We don't—we didn't know
that we would have problems with the radioactive material from
the nuclear plant where we put that. We haven't solved that
problem. And God only knows what's going to happen with solar
power. You know, solar is supposed to be clean. Yeah, it
produces clean energy, but it's dirty to make, and we don't know
once we have it as trash what kind of problems—health problems
it's going to cause where we bury that, those solar panels, which
are
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29:09 It becomes a very difficult situation. And I don'tI don't
envy you guys trying to figure out where to put this stuff It's not
an easy determination. But what we do know is EPA has
designated it as non uh, nonI forget what it's called,
nonpolluting really. Even though there is pollutants in it. So the
EPA has done studies on stuff like this. I'm not sure exactly what
that all means. You either believe the EPA for everything they do
or like me, I don't believe the EPA for anything that they do. So
there's a choice. You can't be part pregnant. You have to be all
pregnant or not pregnant at all, that type of thing.
29:51 But anyway. We have the lights on tonight. And I don't
know whether it's a coal power plant that's producing these lights.
But what we do see is that we have lights and we're producing
pollution. So even as the arguments go on today that we need to
somehow bury the pollution someplace, and God only knows
where, and that's your problem, we're still producing it. The best
thing to do is just turn your lights off. You won't be producing
pollution. Go in that direction.
30:17 But my two main concerns with this are —one is we have to
find some way of delivering this material to the waste site from
point A to point B without necessarily people— dumping it out the
side of the road like they did with the PCPs [ph] years ago, heading
up to Warren County. A little simple number one to the truck
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30:56
30:56
30:58
31:02
31:22
31:48
31:48
32:22
32:37
32:46
NC DENR
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Page 21
driver at the beginning of the thing, and then he gives it at the end
of the ride or something like that would assure that that material
gets to itsto its point. And the other thing is the dust produced.
We have to —some way to control the dust. Thank you very much
for your-
Watkins: Thank you.
Dallas: —for listening.
[APPLAUSE]
Watkins: Marvin Wall [ph].
Wall: My name is Marvin Wall, 1116 Vanstone Drive. And I have three
questions please. The first question is how many people support or
want the coal ash to come to this county? How many people here
are opposed to this coal ash coming to this county?
[CLAPPING]
Wall: Please raise your hands so that we can see them. Please note that
95% of the people here are in opposition to this coal ash coming to
Chatham County. My last question is should corporations and
government listen and pay attention to the people who are most
directly by the activity that will occur? Thank you.
[APPLAUSE] [CHEERS]
Watkins: Our next speaker, Dr. Charles Cook.
Cook: Good evening. My name is Charles Cook. I'm a internist, kidney
specialist, nephrologist, and also a public health physician who at
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one point worked with the state, actually with DENR. I won't
belabor one with the thoughts [ph] of the toxicities. I mean, all of
us know the information that has been asserted [ph] on, and as one
pointed out, all you need to do is go to internet. The point being
that many of these toxic substances will be here for thousands of
years. So if we accept it in our bosom it will be in our bosom for
thousands of years. That will affect our children, their children,
and children of linear [ph] thousands of years.
33:30 That being said, let me place two active thoughts in one's
mind. One is my cell phone, an iPhone, which is in the
imagination of someone years ago and often probably was said to
that person, "This is not real. This is only your imagination. You
can't do this." And here I'm holding the cell phone. The second is
for those who have traveled highways. When we get ready to
build three -lane highways for thousands of miles we take and we
put a plant, a concrete plant along the way. We don't haul the
cement from point A to point B; we build it on site.
34:20 So my point is this, if DENR wants to be appropriate in
taking care of this problem which is here, we can't deny that, they
can require that the form of ash that leaves that site be a solid form.
That in fact Duke power can build on each one of its sites or have
on each one of its sites a concrete or a plaster. There is a light
plaster. There is a light concrete which the coal ash will serve as
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35:23
36:04 [APPLAUSE]
NC DENR
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Page 23
substrate to solidify the ash where it will not dust, and whether you
haul it back to Virginia —West Virginia where there are billions of
cubic feet of mineshafts that these coal ash cylinders, balls, rocks,
or whatever it could be lowered into providing jobs both here in
North Carolina and in West Virginia, that is in fact job starved.
Or whether we do in fact have to place it in a county here in
this state. If it's in solid form it solves a lot of the problems that
we here are concerned about. And the monitoring aspect then of
that site goes down dramatically. It's safe in traveling, and it'll be
safe for years in those solid forms. Legislators can in fact require
that moving the sites moving the coal ash be in solid form. And
DENR can propagate the rules that make sure that it's in solid
form. It'll solve many of the issues that we are now concerned
about. Thank you.
36:13 Watkins: Jane Gallagher?
36:28 Gallagher: Jane Gallagher, 628 Redbud Pittsboro, North Carolina. I want to
use my time to relate to you a relevant experience that we've had
here in Chatham County concerning DENR and an industry and
why we don't trust DENR or their permit process to protect the
safety and health of the citizens of Chatham County no matter the
number of safeguards Duke Energy details in their proposed coal
fly ash.
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36:55 At the S.T. Wooten asphalt plant on Sugar Lake and Mount
Gilead site TCE, a known carcinogen, has seeped into the
groundwater hundreds of feet from the original source of
contamination, hundreds of feet below the surface, at levels that
exceed your [ph] water standards. And in some instances in the 29
monitoring wells that are on that site, that are over a hundredfold
higher than your safe standards. Ninety -four property owners have
water wells within one -half mile of that contamination. Many of
them had no idea about this. Imagine a half a mile, two times
around a track, not knowing what's in your backyard.
37:38 Has DENR every properly informed these people of the
contamination? No. Has DENR provided citizens with an update
regarding the cleanup? No. Would DENR conduct well
monitoring in the area if not urged to do so by a few who track the
migration and the extent of the contamination in very detailed
reports? No. In fact, DENR doesn't even have a memorandum of
agreement that would ensure oversight of the cleanup like they did
in the early 2000s. Nor does DENR, like they used to, issues S.T.
Wooten notices of violation for exceeding the water standards
water quality standards for TCE, this carcinogen, that's in their
stream that leaves their property with their large no trespassing
signs into the Haw River then to Jordan Lake, our drinking waters
water source.
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38:33 Why should it take 15 years to remove the TCE laced soil?
Why do tax payers have to pick up the tab for the over 8,50085
tons of contaminated soil that unbeknownst to most people left the
site finally, 400 truckloads, 20 -ton trucks? Why does that—why is
it taxpayer cost? As the cleanup costs spiral other groups and
subcontractors are being named as the culprits in—in the original
contamination. No one is taking responsibility except for the
taxpayers.
39:06 Why don't we think the industry is genuine here? 2002.
We're now 15 years later. S.T. Wooten —cops. Upside down.
Sorry. S.T. Wooten is listening and responding, "We want to help.
We know that the citizens are concerned, and we're going to set up
an advisory group. And we're going to work with the Chatham
County manager to allay people's concern." Nothing.
39:30 A certified letter went to S.T. Wooten last week, 15 years
later. "Can you set up a community meeting so people know ?"
No response. Their prompt and their one —their prompt and their
1.2 million ton air permit which allows hundreds of carcinogen
agents to be released in the air on top of their contaminated ground
site and you provided them an air permit two years ago to dump
4,000 pounds of TCE into the air. Does that make sense?
39:59 You seem to be more responsive to your client industries
not your client residents. Intent on taking
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40:05 [APPLAUSE]
40:07 Gallagher: —away from the county officials [INDISCERNIBLE] protect the
citizens. Thank you for listening.
40:14 [APPLAUSE] [CHEERS]
40:22 Watkins: Elaine Chiosso.
40:31 Chiosso: Good evening. My name is Elaine Chiosso. I'm the Haw
Riverkeeper with the Haw Rive Assembly based here in Chatham
County, a nonprofit org to protect the Haw River and Jordan Lake.
40:42 The Brickhaven clay mine site being targeted for this coal
ash disposal drains to Shaddox [ph] Creek, a tributary of the Haw
River. And many of our Haw River Assembly members live in
southeast Chatham County and would be impacted by it. Gulf
Creek also drains this site and is already on the North Carolina
impaired waters list, primarily because of the sediment coming off
this old clay mine. So we've already seen how pollution moves
down these creeks all headed towards the Cape Fear River. Our
concerns include, of course, surface and ground water but also
public health and safety and the destruction of wildlife and the
environment.
41:24 The Cape Fear river downstream from this site is a drinking
water source for many municipalities, and it's also habitat for the
federally listed Cape Fear shiner and some other threatened
species. Charah and Green Meadows say there are no endangered
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41:51
42:34 [APPLAUSE]
NC DENR
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Page 27
species on our site, as if water doesn't flow down to the Cape Fear.
So any pollutants flowing off this site will indeed impact the Cape
Fear shiner.
We think it's a fallacy to call this coal ash disposal site
mine reclamation when it's clearly a toxic coal ash landfill. In
order to store the coal ash there they're going to have to excavate
areas that have never been excavated before. The coal ash would
be mounded to a height far above the grade of what's already
there. And because of those liners nothing could ever be built on
top of it. Does that sound like reclamation? No. That sounds like
a coal ash landfill. And until that is decided no permits should be
issues for this site. We're looking at
42:34 Chiosso: heavy metals. As we already heard arsenic, lead, mercury,
42:58
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probably some radioactive elements. All are going to be in this
coal ash landfill. The liners will degrade. All liners degrade over
time. It's just a matter of when. And when they do we're talking
about that contaminated soil, water, groundwater, all contaminated
going into the Cape Fear, going into people's drinking water wells.
What kind of monitoring are we setting up ahead of time?
The permits application talks about storm water retention system,
berm height, sediment ponds, all based on historical data for
engineering designs assuming weather patterns are going to stay

44:34 [APPLAUSE]
NC DENR
Public Hearing 04.16.2015
Page 28
the same, as if there is no climate change, as if we might not have
fiercer storms in the future. So failure of these berms again,
downstream water users, we're talking about Sanford, Harnett
County, Fort Bragg, Fayetteville, Wilmington. The leachate.
Who's going to take that leachate? We're talking about some
toxins that could really damage a wastewater treatment plant. Who
would really want to take that?
So in closing I just want toI just want to also mention
that we've already got five coal ash ponds sitting in Moncure less
than two miles from where they're talking about brining twelve
million tons from the Charlotte Riverbend plant to Brickhaven. So
in less than two miles we've already got tons of coal ash that Duke
Energy is not telling us what they're going to do about. We need
to back up from this plan completely, look at how coal ash could
be safely stored, not bringing it hundreds of miles to Chatham and
Lee counties. You know, Duke can't solve their coal ash problem
by dumping on us.
44:45 Watkins: Our next speaker—Gerald Featherstone.
45:06: Featherstone: I prepared some written comments. I prepared some written
comments. My name is Gerald Featherstone. I live at 117 Pinland
[ph], east of Pittsboro here, across the river. I'd just like to speak
quickly from my heart. We're going on about [ph] an equity issue.
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45:24 This is a problem that we've all had the benefits of Every
time we flip on a light, like the man was saying, we are benefiting
from coal ash. Okay? It's time to pay the piper. Because now
we've got to deal with first this coal, which is polluting our air to
the point we're having a climate change episode unlike any in
history. We are now looking at, you might say, the other end of
the coal, the solid remnants.
46:00 Love Canal and a lot of the superfund sites here in America
were made that way because they concentrated all the fecal [ph]
material in the—in one spot. So when the disaster finally
occurred, guess what, it was a beauty [ph]. Since we all benefited,
every citizen in the United States, every gang of people across this
country, why don't we share the risk equally?
46:29 You know, I don't mind taking a risk, but I don't want to
take all of it, and I don't think it's right that you're asking one
group of people, one people, to risk the values of their land, to risk
the values of their heath, the future of their children, when
everybody should share it. Maybe if you kept these damn things in
one little place in areas like RiverbendI used to live up there—
and keep it down in where all these people want to bring it.
Let's dilute it a little out here so if something does go wrong the
disaster is a one heck of a lot smaller than it would be if we get
another Love Canal -like disaster here, another superfund site.
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47:11
47:56 [APPLAUSE]
NC DENR
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Page 30
Think about it that way. We all benefit; we all need to
share the risk. Also if this stuff is spread around the state the
disasters will be a lot less. And, frankly, looking at the track
record of the modern industrial society you can expect some more
disasters far more than you really want to even think about,
frankly. I thank you for your time. Try, you know, a little, shall
we say, a new policy perhaps. Instead of having what we have had
in the past, which has been basically environmental injustice, try a
little environmental justice for the people of this state.
48:03 Watkins: Thank you, sir. Our next speaker, Christine Carlson.
48:20 Carlson: Good evening. My name is Christine Carlson. And I live in south
..
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Chapel Hill just downwind of where Duke Energy is requesting a
permit to transport via truck and train over 20 million tons of an
accumulated 150 million tons of toxic coal ash, through and into
the communities of North Carolina. This will soon begin in
Chatham and Lee counties.
And lest you ask [ph], "Isn't there a safer solutions ?" Yes,
it's called salt stone technology. It would solidify and contain the
coal ash on site, in above - ground bunkers. These bunkers would
be on Duke's current property but moved [ph] further from the
rivers. The coal ash would therefore remain Duke Energy's
rightful responsibility.

NC DENR
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Page 31
49:20 [APPLAUSE]
49:24 F (group): [SINGING] If you're thinking of dumping coal ash into mines and
how that will work, well, it's far from just fine. The liners will
leak in a matter of time. Then how will you handle that new coal
ash slime? Chatham and Lee they are wondering still, if it's mine
reclamation or another landfill. A toxic landfill with its hills oh so
high will create a wasteland with no houses to buy. We grannies
well know that tourists are dear, and fly ash up their noses will not
make them cheer. So tonight we all ask you consider our plea and
issue no permits to Duke Energy.
50:42 [APPLAUSE] [CHEERS]
50:57 Watkins: Our next speaker-
50:59 [LAUGHTER]
51:01 Watkins: It's entertaining [ph]. John Cross.
51:07 Cross: Good evening. My name is John Cross. I live in Moncure; I have
for the last 45 years. I worked here. Now I'm retired. I'm the
vice chair president for the Chatham County NAACP branch 5377.
51:21 We do not need this coal ash here. In fact, more than the
people in Lee County and Chatham will be affected from Charlotte
to here [ph] and from Wilmington to here. Be it rail or truck, even
with it covered some of it will still be lost in transit. Duke needs to
keep the coal ash where it is, clean up these rivers that are
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contaminated. This ash is supposed to be put in these liners [ph]
that is not supposed to leak.
51:49 We have a ship down at the coast that is in need for repair.
This is a steel hull. Has been eaten away by just plain sea
saltwater. These liners are supposed to contain this coal ash with
all of these chemicals combined. I don't think so. This destroys
everything like life, health, vegetation, land value, our
underground water source.
52:21 I remember back in 1970 my driveway was in need of
work. It has washed out. And I was going down to CP &L to get
some coal that had been through the furnaces to make put on the
driveway. And a friend of mine said, "Do not do that." Because
as soon as it rain this coal ash was washed over the grass and
everything. It would kill everything that was there. So we need to
stop the coal ash in its tracks. Reserve Lee /Chatham for the future.
Thank you.
52:59 [APPLAUSE]
53:13 Watkins: Martha Girolami.
53:27 Girolami: Thank you. I'm Martha Girolami, Chatham County resident.
What shall we call the enormous coal ash dumps in Chatham and
Lee? I call them reckless pollution by DENR, Duke Energy, and
the North Carolina legislature. They also represent the callous
abandonment and sacrifice of local people of Chatham and Lee.
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Those towering mounds of coal ash will represent the tyranny of
our North Carolina legislature. This Duke Energy project to
transport and dispose of 20 million tons of coal ash to rural Lee
and Chatham counties is a criminal environmental injustice.
54:06 Let's think a minute about environmental justice for a
second. The United States EPA defines environmental justice as
the fair treatment and meaningful involvement of all people
regardless of race, color, sex, national origin, or income with
respect to the development and implementation and enforcement of
environmental laws, regulations, and policies. You've got one bad
policy and plan [ph]. There has been no fair and meaningful local
involvement. In fact, the Coal Ash Management Act has cut out
any input from local governments and communities.
54:45 [APPLAUSE]
54:45 Girolami: They have [INDISCERNIBLE] these future superfund sites.
These dumps crush these communities' civil and property rights,
quality of life, hope for future, and economic security. Where is
the justice in any of this project?
55:04 M: Where?
55:04 Girolami: Is it so hard to do the obvious? Dig the coal ash out of the unlined
riverside pits at the power plants; store the solidified coal ash on or
near the power plant property; and put it in vaults or silos or tanks.
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55:27
55:28
55:42
55:43
55:49
55:52
NC DENR
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Page 34
Keep it above ground to adequately monitor pollution, and you can
take corrective action easily if there's a leak.
F: Yes.
Girolami: Make Duke Energy keep the liability and management of all its
coal ash. If it cost Duke Energy a lot then that is the motivating
reminder that they need to burn much less coal in the future. Stop
burning coal and you'll have less ash [ph].
[APPLAUSE] [CHEERS]
Girolami: Duke Energy must give North Carolina as much solar, wind, wave,
and geothermal as possible.
F: Yeah. Mm -hmm.
Girolami: How will these coal ash dumps destroy these communities in
Sanford and Moncure? They'll be destroyed by air pollution.
None of this material handling is in enclosed [ph] spaces. It's as
exposed to the sun, wind, and rain. They say that their cure for
dusting is keeping the coal ash wet. What a joke. And do not
DENR does not require an air permit. Two, if these communities
by—because the ash is toxic. You've already heard about that.
It's toxic and it's permanent and it's forever. Three, you destroy
these communities because the landfill liner will fail. There is
almost no—there's almost no data, no science, no study of landfill
liners with coal ash in them. You'll destroy the communities by
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leachate pollution, destroy the community because of loss of trust
and fear, destroyed by community loss—losing their democracy.
56:54 Why pollute and pollute? DENR, the North Carolina
legislature, and Duke Energy are the polluters if they force and
impose this stupid coal ash dump. Stop it now. Deny these
permits for dumps in our counties. Keep the ash at the power
plants, and store the solidified ash in vaults above ground. Thank
you.
57:15 [APPLAUSE] [CHEERS]
57:25 Watkins: John Wagner.
57:35 Wagner: My name is John Wagner. I'm a resident of Chatham County.
11
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And I will submit scientific information in my written comments.
Right now I'm going to make a confession. Behind my house in
my own backyard I've got a generator. A coal fired generator. It
works nicely. It produces cheap electricity and a lot of smoke.
But it makes one heck of a lot of toxic coal ash.
Fortunately I don't have to do anything that might cost me
money with it. I just heap it up in my backyard. Sure on windy
days it blows in my neighbors' yards, and when it rains it washes
into the creek behind my house. But the great thing is I don't have
to take any precautions. No troublesome hurricane plans or
precautions, no tornado plans, not even a tarp.

NC DENR
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Page 36
58:29 But then in 2008 that sloppy TVA went and spilled almost
five and a half million tons of coal across 300 acres and two rivers.
That looked bad, so I did what any concerned citizen would do. I
went to the legislature and started getting them to cut me slack if
anything went wrong.
58:51 [LAUGHTER]
58:53 Wagner: Then Duke went and spilled 80,000 tons of coal ash straight into
the Dan River. Now I realized I really need to take some
environmental protection seriously. Somehow I had to deal with
mercury, with lead, thallium, arsenic, and all that nasty stuff So I
hired a team of researchers. After months of painstaking research
we came up with a solution: giant Ziploc baggies.
59:23 [LAUGHTER]
59:24 Wagner: Unfortunately their research also showed that the baggies wouldn't
last. But then I got an inspiration. If I just hid them nobody would
see them leak. Better yet, I could hide them in my children's room
and then the leaks would be their problems. But, no, if I did that it
would still be on my property. Then I came up with the ultimate
solution. The ultimate solution. Hide the baggies in my
neighbor's children's yards. Let it be their problems. Then when
the baggies leaked it wouldn't be on my property.
60:04 But seriously, to tell you the truth we have a bad problem
in North Carolina. And DENR and Duke and all of us have this
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problem. In our backyards and across the state we're leaking coal
ash pits that spill into the rivers. They're leaking all the time.
You, DENR, get to be the emergency room doctors that deal with a
real crisis and a critical patient that's covered with oozing, seeping
wounds. The solution is not to cut an infection out of one place
and move it to somewhere else.
60:48 [APPLAUSE]
60:52 Wagner: So stop. Look at the whole state. There are critical decision that
need to be made. But rushing into a cheap, sloppy, short -term job
is not a solution. Don't let Duke stuff baggies of coal ash out of
sight in our children's rooms.
61:13 F: Yeah.
61:13 F: Mm -hmm.
61:14 Wagner: Use science; use research; consult with biologists, chemists,
engineers, local government, and citizens. Don't grant Duke's
permit to dump baggies of coal ash on Lee and Chatham counties
and pretend that that's a solution. Deny the permit. Do your job
and protect North Carolina. Thank you.
61:38 [APPLAUSE] [CHEERS]
61:47 Watkins: Therese Vick.
62:01 Vick: Good evening. I'm Therese Vick, and I'm the North Carolina
healthy sustainable campaign coordinator for Blue Ridge
Environmental Defense League. And we have member chapters in
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Lee and Chatham County. I appreciate an opportunity to talk to
you tonight.
62:17 In the late 1970s Governor Jim Hunt had a PCB problem.
His solution to the problem was to force the siting of a PCB dump
in Warren County. This action is widely understood to be the
spark that lit the environmental justice movement.
62:33 M: That's right.
62:34 Vick: Today Governor Pat McCrory has a coal ash problem. His
solution: to allow Duke Energy to force coal ash dumps on
Chatham and Lee counties. Even though Governor McCrory said
on a television media report that the main hope he had is that they
allow us to reuse coal ash for other projects and not just use it to
put in a dump elsewhere. There had been a deafening silence from
our governor on what is occurring in Chatham and Lee counties.
63:06 It is clear that Duke Energy's heavy hand has impacted this
process, from the Coal Ash Management Act to tonight's hearing.
It takes years to permit a municipal solid waste landfill. Here we
are permitting two huge toxic coal ash landfills in mere months.
63:23 [APPLAUSE]
63:24 Vick: This is unconscionable and unjust. When I asked someone from
DENR to please share examples of times when the department
scheduled one hearing on multiple permits, especially large
controversial permits, I got no answer. None. We are having two
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hearings on six different state permits. Six permits. Two different
sites. They're not the same sites. There's six different permits.
And so far no hearing on the federal 404 permits.
64:01 People are being told to address their comments to one
particular kind of permit, like we're all engineers and we're all
chemists and experts at waste management. And the link that is on
DENR's coal ash page where the permit applications are located
simply says public notice. It does not say click here to comment
on the permits. It is confusing and disempowering. I have heard
this from community folks in both counties. Maybe this is
intentional.
64:32 One thing that I also wanted to point out and this justI
sort of found this out. Down in South Carolina at one of Duke's
facilities, one of their coal ash pits, they found that there had been
low -level [ph] radioactive waste disposed of there unknown to the
regulators and others. I queried DENR several times to find out if
they knew if that had ever happened here. They don't think it has,
but they don't know. They said they were not apprised of what
had been of disposed of in the pits over the years. So in other
words they don't know.
65:06 So on behalf of the members and directors of Blue Ridge
Environmental Defense League I urge DENR to deny all the
permits under consideration. There are sufficient reasons to do so
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if you only have the political will and fortitude to do the right
thing. Chatham and Lee counties will not rest in peace buried
under Duke Energy's coal ash. Thank you for the opportunity to
comment.
65:29 [APPLAUSE] [CHEERS]
65:36 Watkins: Our next speaker, Nick Wood.
65:48 Wood: Thank y'all. And good to see you again. I'll mix it up a little this
66:24
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time to keep it interesting. My name is Nick Wood. I'm here on
behalf of NC WARN. That stands for North Carolina Waste
Awareness and Reduction Network. We're a 27- year -old
organization based out of Durham with hundreds of members
around the state who are very concerned about this issues. And as
a matter of fact NC WARN arose out of the ashes of the PCB fight
you've heard mentioned. And it's amazing how history repeats
itself. We have an opportunity here to change course, and I hope
that we do.
But I will say, as I said on Monday, Duke Energy is why
we are here. It's because they have recklessly built up tons and
tons and tons upon tons and tons to an unimaginable [ph] amount
of waste knowing for many, many years that this stuff wasn't good
for us and knowing for a good portion of my life that this stuff was
leaking into the rivers yet they did nothing.

NC DENR
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66:49 There's been a lot of buck passing going on in North
Carolina, now and for some time. After we pass our bucks on to
Duke Energy, which we don't have a choice, either Duke or
someone who buys from them, if we do want our lights on. They
also pass those bucks onto government decision makers, both
elected officials and others in regulatory agencies such as this one.
67:13 I just found out from another organization that they gave $3
million of money that profits get made off us went to the
Republican Governors Association. Hmm. But these bucks are
very profitable because they buy monopoly status and they buy
cover for generations of abuse and law breaking and get assessed
hundreds of millions of dollars of fines or a hundred million from
the federal government, though they are appealing.
67:39 But for this generous donation they get monopoly control
and influence, and it enables a business model that gives them a
return on what they spend. This isn't a competitive market. They
spend money, they make money, which is whey they want to built
expensive power plants and buy millions of dollars of coal from
out of state and move away the more affordable and renewable
technologies where they don't have to buy fuel. Go figure.
68:05 They've created this through this business model. And
they ignored it for many, many years after they became aware.
Now is the time. We have hundreds of millions of tons available
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.:
68:52 [APPLAUSE]
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and we have a moment in time because this is all political. This
stuff has been sitting here. But because of the disaster at Dan
River we've been given an opportunity to do the right thing and
look at other ways to do this. Because we have this one time.
When these liners leak—we know they when [ph] whether it's 5
years or 20 the political will isn't [ph] going to be there to do
something about it.
So let's do something now. Let's clean up this
Frankenstein monster. Let's avoid this crude way of digging it up
and trucking it all over the state because the last thing we need is
14 more sites where people are poisoned. Do the right thing. Take
this opportunity. Don't pass the buck. Thank you.
69:00 Watkins: Laura Lauffer [ph].
69:11 Lauffer: Good evening. Thank you, Raging Grannies. V all rock. My
69:31
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name is Laura Lauffer. I live at 350 New Meadow Lane Pittsboro,
North Carolina. I was really pleased to see this criteria for a
mining permit review here when I got here because it helped me
formulate my comments this evening.
The criteria for mining review says that the operation may
not be permitted or will be under —not be under consideration if it
violates standards of air quality, surface water quality, or
groundwater quality that have been promulgated by the

NC DENR
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department, that the previous experience with similar operations
indicates a substantial possibility that the operation will result in
substantial deposits of sediment in stream beds or lakes, landslides,
or acid water pollution. We know that the ten existing coal ash
sites are doing these things.
70:03 What we're seeing is chromium highs in exceedance of
50% above standard causing cancer and ulcers; iron highs
exceedance of 4,600% above standard, renders water unusable;
manganese highs exceedance 7,100% above standard, nervous
system, muscle problems, and mental problems. And Salisbury
site we see boron highs exceedance of 84% above standard,
reproductive problems, gastrointestinal illness.
70:32 Because coal ash pits will likely cause the loss of life in the
event of failure the EPA rates lagoons as a significant hazard.
Why would we re- permit? Why would we add more? Why aren't
we cleaning up what we already have? We know-
[APPLAUSE]—that DENR is underfunded. You have been given
a mandate to work with business instead of working with citizens.
70:55 F: Right.
70:56 Lauffer: You have been undercut. We appreciate the environmentalists [ph]
at DENR, but every time I call DENR to talk to somebody I used
to work with they're gone. You don't have the capacity to do the
good work you were hired to do. We don't trustas Ms.
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Gallagher said, we don't trust that you have the capacity to do this.
We don't trust the system as it is. Clean up what you've got. Fix
it. Make it right. Don't poison us with antimony, selenium,
nickel, arsenic. All of these chemicals are already hurting your
North Carolina citizens. Don't add more; don't move it; don't
expose our children; don't expose our grandparents; don't expose
our pregnant moms. We don't need it. Make Duke clean up their
mess.
71:44 F: Right.
F: Yeah.
[APPLAUSE] [CHEERS]
71:53 Watkins: Our next speaker, Gwen Whitley.
72:23 G. Whitley: [INDISCERNIBLE]. Hi. My name is Dr. Gwen Whitley. And I
72:47
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have been a family and emergency medicine physician in North
Carolina for about 20 years off and on. I'm retired now. I moved
to North Carolina because I wanted to. It's not my home state; it's
just my home.
So I'm here tonight because North Carolina is really at risk,
is really being potentially damaged. When I heard about the North
Carolina legislature overriding county government about coal ash
storage it is such a violation of all of our rights as citizens of the
United States. Somewhere in the declaration of independence it
talked about our pursuit of happiness. How do you do that if

NC DENR
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you're in fear of your life all the time, in fear of your children's
lives, your grandchildren's lives, your great - grandchildren's lives?
73:31 It said on the piece of paper we filled out, "What
organization are you a member of?" I'm a member of the human
race; I'm a North Carolinian; I'm a mother; and I'm a
grandmother. And that is my power base on the where I speak
from. That's where I speak from. I've taken care of many, many
people. I have delivered children, and it is fun. It really is, in fact.
I have helped many people get better. I have been with many
people when they die, when their family dies, and it is not pleasant.
So why are we involved in our state dying instead of growing and
prospering. We don't have to be involved with death on this level.
We just don't.
74:25 There are solutions. Okay. We have coal ash; it's not
going to go way. Wishing it is not going to help. But for once in
our life, in our history we don't have to wait until after the fact to
find out, "Oh, that does bad things." We already know that there's
a process to make it much, much safer. We just have to get them
to spend money to do it. Right? For once we can upfront do the
right thing.
74:52 I recently worked up in Minnesota, and they have a
department up there called DNR. Okay? We have DENR
apparently. But DNR up there is a very well respected position, a
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very well respected for anyone in the community to work with
them. The Department of Natural Resources. In my world DNR
means do no resuscitate. Is that what DENR means here in North
Carolina too; do not resuscitate? Because it sure feels like it. The
other thing
75:23 [APPLAUSE]
75:25 G. Whitley: The other thing I'd like to point out is that, you know, North
Carolina is a farming state. Okay? And in the United States we
are number two for poultry, number seven for blueberries, number
nine for chickens, 15 for soybeans. Well, how about this one, 29
in the nation for milk production? Who wants to buy that? What
state wants to buy that milk? So there goes our economy right
there. And if you're [ph] talking about population, well, we're in
the highest population area, Raleigh, Wake County, Durham
County, Chatham and Lee, highest in the state. Let's make sure
we poison that part first. Because, after all, that's where the
leadership is. Right? Going down the tubes with the DENR
people. Thanks.
76:12 [APPLAUSE]
76:20 Watkins: Hope Taylor [ph].
76:31 M: Hope Taylor is sick, and I'd like permission to speak on her behalf.
Watkins: Fine [ph].
F: the mic. Pull the mic up.
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M: Hope Taylor is sick and I'm asking for permission to speak on her
behalf
Watkins: You're fine.
76:45 M: Okay. She is submitting a written statement. And I've taken a few
excerpts and will read those now. She sends her heartfelt best
wishes to the Lee and Chatham communities that are facing this
new threat, and sent the Clean Water for North Carolina board of
directors resolution that has many strong and important
components. I'm not going to read all of them, and I'm not going
to read them in detail. But here is excerpts from them.
77:20 One, that all proposed disposal and storage sights must
undergo an independent review of environmental justice
considerations with extensive citizen input. Two, that Duke
Energy shareholders, not the customers, be required to bear the
cost of cleanup and safe disposal of the coal ash.
77:44 F: Yes.
F: Yeah.
[CHEERS] [APPLAUSE]
77:47 M: Three, that Duke Energy not seek to preempt local protections past
in accordance with local requirements to protect people and natural
resources from industrial developments such as coal ash, that
communities along proposed transportation routes, if it has to be
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moved, which it shouldn't, be given full opportunity to participate
in every stage of the process.
78:23 Next, that workers responsible for handling the coal ash
shipments be given maximum respiratory, eye, and skin protection,
compensation commensurate with hazardous waste handling as
well as ongoing health monitoring. Next, that Duke Energy cease
power production of all its coal -fired facilities within five years.
And it should transition its coal -fired portfolio to extensive
efficiency, solar, and wind rather than continue dependence on
nuclear power or shale gas.
79:06 F: Yes.
F: Yes.
[APPLAUSE]
79:11 M: We know that the range of impacts on communities facing these
new massive landfills includes groundwater threats, toxic airborne
particulates, degraded quality of life. These proposed coal ash
landfills represent Duke Energy thumbing its nose at any
acknowledgement of the environmental injustices that they would
perpetrate on vulnerable communities in Lee and Chatham and
across the state. We say no.
79:39 We call upon DENR and Duke to have a much broader
vision than just environmental protection and paying off local
governments, like they did in Lee, and work for us; work with us
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for a just and sustainable solution that starts with a commitment to
reduce dirty energy production and consumption. Thank you.
80:04 F: Right.
[APPLAUSE]
80:10 Watkins: Our next speaker, Elizabeth Hutchby [ph].
80:23 Hutchby: My name is Liz Hutchby. I live in Wake County, living in Cary
.
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just off I -40 there between Wilmington. And related to folks in
Asheville [ph] and what does that have to do with coal ash. Thank
you for looking me in the eye. Thank you for listening and looking
us in the eye as we speak. The concerns of my neighbors in Wake
County are immense. Our hearts go out them. We've spent many
sleepless nights really, believe or not, wondering what in the world
is going to happen because Duke seems to be doing some criminal
activity in the first place, we all know that. DENR doesn't have
the capacity to actually enforce the rules.
The constitution has not been held. The North Carolina
Constitution has not been upheld. You haven't been able to do
your job. We're citizens trying to do our job to speak out and say,
"Please." We don't expect to get down on our knees and beg, we
do have feelings. We're angry, we're hurt, we're upset.
Obviously, we would like Duke Energy to keep its coal ash on its
own property. [APPLAUSE]

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82:15 They created it, right? We're using the electricity, but the
utilities seem —the Utilities Commission decided that we wouldn't
have so many renewables. So until we have more renewables we
know what will happen. But until Duke Energy decides, with your
assistance, to do the right thing and keep their coal ash on their
property above ground, in a concrete, shall we call them
mausoleum, or do we want to make a pyramid out of it?
82:53 I don't know exactly what it's going to look like, but I have
seen photographs, I have seen the maps, and it's astounding what
is expected to happen in a short amount of time. That is another
reason that I support all the comments that have suggested we have
no permitting, none, zip, no permitting of any of this because what
will happen. It'll be another rush without sufficient human
information. We won't even know what we're doing, and humans
have already made enough mistakes, right? Am I right about that?
83:40 F: You sure are.
83:41 Hutchby: Have humans made mistakes? We're all human. You have a
choice. You can make a decision. You have the power, you are
employees of DENR, and we'd greatly appreciate it if you would
use your brains, because you have excellent brains, and do not
permit any of this, all six of them. [APPLAUSE]
84:10 Watkins: Our next speaker, Thelma Sharon Garvet [ph].
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84:38 Garvet: Good evening. Thanks for giving us the opportunity to comment
tonight. My name is Thelma Sharon Garvet and I'm a resident of
Chatham County. When I heard that the coal ash was aiming for
Chatham County I began to look into the issues, and have come to
the conclusion that we do not have any idea of how to dispose of
this safely, and so Duke came up with a plan, they were forced to
come up with a plan and it was to ship it here.
85:11 And the problem begins with the shipping. I do not see
how it can be done safely; I guess you're going to put it on trains
or trucks. Which of you are going to ride on those trains or trucks
to make sure it's not blowing all through Chatham and Wake
County? And then once you get it to the site, you're going to bury
it. Well, on the night we had the hurricane, who is going to be out
there monitoring where it's all going?
85:42 F: Seriously.
85:43 Garvet: And on stormy nights during the wintery weather when we have
huge snow melts or ice storms, who is going to be out there
monitoring each day to make sure that Charah and Green Meadows
are handling this coal ash responsibly. And then once it's buried,
who is going to monitor those liners to make sure that they never
leak? And I constantly hear about the DENR employees working
until late at night on the fracking issues been very active.
You're already working at night, how are you going to ride on all
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of those trains and all of those trucks to make sure? And I've
heard this could be thousands of trains and thousands of trucks
over a period of eight years.
86:33 So it just seems to me that I would like to echo what other
folks have said. Let's keep it, let's get it above ground, let's put it
and enclose it in permeable containers until we can figure out a
safe way to take care of this problem. And then that way we won't
be , it won't be hidden. It is true, I've heard several times
we've said that we have all benefited from Duke Power producing
energy over the years, and that is absolutely true, we have, we've
had our lights on. But I've noticed that Duke's bottom line
indicates that we have paid for it already. Okay. [APPLAUSE]
Billions of dollars [ph]
87:17 Now why don't they use that money to take care of this
problem that they created, and use some of those billions of dollars
to safely impound it in concrete bunkers, above ground, until we
can discover —pay some researchers to discover safe ways to
dispose of this. Thank you. [APPLAUSE]
87:50 Watkins: Our next speaker, Rhonda Whitley [ph].
88:01 R. Whitley: Hi, guys. Nice to see you again. I'm Dr. Rhonda Whitley. I live
in Moncure, three miles from the ground zero. I am an ear, nose,
and throat, head and neck surgeon, and I also hold a bachelor of
science in biology with emphasis on ecology and mammalian
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studies. The language that I can read in the scientific literature is
not foreign to me. The more I read it, the more scared I get.
88:25 We all know that coal ash contains a lot of horrible things,
and we know that these things all exist in the normal soil at normal
levels. However, in coal ash they are present at ten times the
normal concentration of the original coal. I'll pick 2 out of the 20
because please let's realize that I could talk about the toxins all
night long.
88:47 Mercury, known by the EPA to cause cancer, birth defects,
brain injuries, low sperm counts. Indeed we have all heard the
expression mad as a hatter, and that's from the hatting industry
when mercury was used to cure felt and then would cause severe
neurologic problems and people were thought to be insane. Coal
ash produced about half of the atmospheric mercury there is. And
inhalation of as low as 0.7 grams per cubic meter is known to
cause tremors and decrease brain function in controlled studies.
89:25 Transportation of coal ash will put mercury in the air from
the fugitive dust, and will put mercury in the water from its
leachate [ph]. Please do not force us to be an uncontrolled studies.
I would ask that people here start sampling your own water, and I
would say the best way to test water is start saving hair [ph]
samples. Twenty million tons of coal ash can easily crack the
plastic liners and collapse the embankment just like the 5.4 million
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yards that spilled into the Tennessee —into the Emory River in
Tennessee in 2008. If that's a 1.5 billion cleanup, why not just use
the money now and safely dispose of this coal ash?
90:10 Just for kicks, item number two is going to be the
crystalline silica which is known to present in coal ash. It is also
going to be in the fugitive dust. We all know that silica will case
silicosis, and this is a condition of the lung which will ultimately
lead to decreased pulmonary function, pulmonary nodules, and
there is links for cancer. And it is the most common occupational
lung disease in the world. It is only after a five- to ten -year
exposure that we start to see these things. Coal ash has been
blowing from the Cape Fear plant on Corinth Road for some time,
with many photos to prove it. Duke has been every day this week
at the Chatham County fire hydrant filling their trucks to go wet
the goal ash because, "Oh look, there are public hearings. Quick,
let's go take care of it." If I cut a cancer out of someone, I don't
re- implant it in their liver. [APPLAUSE]
91:09 Duke [ph] cannot repeat the past [ph] its coal ash.
The definition of insanity is to keep repeating history and expect a
different outcome. Duke is mad as a hatter. [APPLAUSE]
91:28 F: [INDISCERNIBLE]
91:36 Watkins: Jeannie Ambrose [ph].
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91:50 Ambrose: Hi. I'm Jeannie Ambrose, Chatham County citizen. Thank you
for having a public hearing in Pittsboro, and I wanted to especially
thank all the speakers who have come out tonight. [APPLAUSE]
92:05 We really need to be able to communicate the concerns of
our community. The Army Corp of Engineers and DENR have
already received my written comments on the value of the
wetlands and isolated wetlands for the 401 permit. Given three
minutes of time speak on one permit has always been a particularly
difficult task for me. Sometimes I just can't stop. So I wanted to
comment on all of the four draft permits, but I will submit
additional written comments with any scientific or technical
information by May 16th.
92:39 After spending a rainy morning exploring a wetland, I feel
compelled to say a bit more about environmental concerns. A
proposed rail spur will connect the CSX rail line for the Moncure
Holdings property, to the Brickhaven, to number two clay mine
tract A [ph] site which is owned by Green Meadows. This rail spur
is being built in 100 -year flood plain, and crossing wetlands and
unnamed tributaries that flow into Shaddox Creek, a tributary of
the Haw River. Shaddox Creek forms the western boundary of the
property owned by Moncure Holdings.
93:19 There needs to be a better environmental impact assessment
of this parcel before rail construction begins since this ecosystem
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will most likely be impacted by all of the fugitive dust from the
railcars transporting coal ash from the Charlotte or Wilmington
site, offloading at the Brickhaven site, and then all these empty
railcars will be leaving the site. The Moncure Holdings parcel is
part of the land being evaluated for site potential as the
Moncure industrial mega park or super park [ph].
93:53 This mega park will be adjacent to the mega dump created
at the Brickhaven site. Think, what type of industry would want to
relocate to a mega dump? Designs of Phase I and III is essentially
a landfill created by excavating the area and then filling the hole
created with coal ash. Interestingly, the hole is lined with plastic
before filling, and I was very impressed to learn when I read the
permit that this plastic will last for 300 years. I thought that was
perhaps a typo. In Phase II there will be additional land excavated,
plus a water -filled pit which will be emptied and will undergo
mine [ph] reclamations. Since there will be hundreds of rail cars
arriving and leaving each day idling as they wait to offload their
shipment, continuous air monitoring stations should be installed to
check the level of diesel emissions and site particulate matter such
as fly ash.
94:49 I'm just going to close because I can continue on but I
won't because it's a long night. But we really deserve better, and
our children deserve better. Thank you. [APPLAUSE]
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95:05 Watkins: Our next speaker, Carol Henry [ph].
95:23 Henry: Hi. I'm from Chatham County. I have questions. Why is Duke
Energy's power plant so inefficient that they produce two billion
tons of coal ash that will be dumped in Lee and Chatham County?
Hand back the responsibility of this coal ash back to Duke Energy,
a multibillion dollar company. They can handle it better that
Chatham and Lee people. Let them start on their own property.
95:46 DENR, how can you give them a permit when they are
unable to store it safely on their own site? When they have shown
they cannot safely store it on their own site, they have tried to stop
people fromI'm sorry, I'm so upset [INDISCERNIBLE].
[APPLAUSE]
96:22 Watkins: Mary Ann Perkins [ph].
96:36 Perkins: Hello, I'm Mary Ann Perkins. My husband and I live on Corinth
Road in the Brickhaven community, approximately one to two
miles by the proposed coal ash pits and Duke Energy's Cape Fear
plant. We request that you deny all permits from Green Meadows
or Charah to store coal ash in our community, as well as in Lee
County based on the following reasons.
97:05 The first one is safety. In a given day within the
Brickhaven community we have tons of vehicles on Corinth Road
which is only three and a half miles long. We presently have the
power plant by owned by Duke Energy currently being dismantled,
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two wood product plants, one glue formaldehyde plant, one brick
[ph] plant, a new solar farm with thousands of panels, a RV park,
the Dickens Farm, and a community store. Approximately 60
homes are interspersed among all this, and most residents own
their homes. Employees of these industries that I've mentioned
work shifts, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.
98:01 Therefore, we have commuters traveling on Corinth Road
at all times, day and night, along with log trucks, tanker trucks,
dump trucks, freight [ph] trucks, sawdust trucks, UPS, FedEx
trucks, and all going more than 55 miles per hour. The Moncure
and Corinth communities are also impacted by this traffic.
Transporting coal ash by truck or rail would increase unsafe
conditions to this already congested traffic situation.
98:42 On Corinth Road there are three railroad crossings. Just
think of the number of people who may be exposed to fly ash, even
school buses filled with children. Accidents happen, and when
they do people in our environment will pay the cost. The spills
would be absorbed in our streams and water supplies. Already,
Gulf Creek on Corinth Road has been damaged by the clay pit
mining from the brick plant. On Sundays the creek runs red, and
other times it is mud. Trees are destroyed and landowners have
flood and this has been the norm for several years. This water runs
into the canal and onto the Cape Fear River where many of our
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towns depend on the Cape Fear for drinking water. Most
homeowners in the Brickhaven community use private wells for
drinking water, and are very concerned about groundwater
contamination from coal ash.
99:42 In March, Charah, Green Meadows, LLC, and I'm out of
time. Should I mention —can I mention on more thing, sir.
99:54 M /F: Keep going.
M: Ma'am—
M: Go ahead.
M: you're fine— [OVERLAPPING]
Perkins: Okay, thank you.
M: Go ahead.
99:58 Perkins: In March, Charah and Green Meadows met with the Chatham
County Board of Commissioners, and the commissioners
questioned how they were going to handle the leachate [ph].
Charah stated it would be transported by truck to a wastewater
treatment plant, but one had not been identified to accept it. What
would happen should one of these trucks or tankers spills the
leachate while transporting it? Also, waste water treatment plants
are set to remove organic matter, not inorganic chemicals which
are in coal ash.
100:31 The economics side of it, approval of the permits would
affect the economics of the area by decreasing the value of
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property. Most community residents use well water for drinking,
bathing, and irrigation purposes. Residents feel their water supply
would become unsafe and it would be costly to connect the county
water system. Plants for the Moncure mega site could adversely be
affected as companies may not want to locate near a coal ash
dump.
101:00 Watkins: Ms. Perkins?
Perkins: Yes?
Watkins: About how much more do you have?
Perkins: One minute.
Watkins: Could I ask you to come back up in just a few minutes and let me
get everybody else through?
101:12 Perkins: Oh. No, that's okay, I just wanted
Watkins: Then go ahead.
101:16 Perkins: Okay. Well, the wildlife would be affected adversely. Where
would the ducks, and deer, and bobcats, and beavers, and geese,
and raccoons go when our wetlands and streams are destroyed?
And the recreation [ph], the Avent Ferry site and the Buckhorn
Dam site, we have lots of campers, and simmers, and fishermen
that go there. And we also —the bicyclists and motorcyclists use
Old Number 1, Highway 1 and Corinth Road as a recreational area
for biking. Thank you for listening for my comments, and I want
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to thank to audience for their support in our fight against coal ash.
[APPLAUSE]
102:10 Watkins: Ms. Henry, would you like to give it a go again?
Henry: [INDISCERNIBLE]
Watkins: If you decide to go we'll have some time in a little bit and you just
wave at me and I'll get you back up, okay. Our next speaker,
Susan Poe [ph].
102:36 Poe: Good evening. My name is Susan Poe and I'm a lifelong resident
of Chatham County, residing in the Brickhaven community. In
fact, my home is approximately one mile from the Brickhaven
mine site where Duke Energy plans to store 12 million tons of
toxic coal ash. Regarding this plan, and on behalf of citizens in the
Brickhaven, Corinth, and Moncure area, I would like to
respectfully submit the following petition signed by 342 residents
and /or landowners. A petition against transport and storage of
toxic coal ash in southeast Chatham County, North Carolina
Brickhaven community to the NC DENR, Army Corp of
Engineers, and to the Chatham County Board of Commissioners.
103:30 The undersigned petitioners request the following actions,
and this first actions is directed to DENR and the Army Corp of
Engineers. Deny required permits of Green Meadows LLC or
Charah to transport and store toxic coal ash in the Brickhaven
community in clay pits. The second action is directed to the
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Chatham County Board of Commissioners, and I know some of
them are here tonight. Reject any offers by Duke Energy to the
Chatham County Board [APPLAUSE] allowing coal ash
transport and storage from other sites to southeast Chatham
County. These requested actions are based on the following
concerns.
104:16 A. Coal ash is the nation's second largest waste stream
[ph], and contains high levels of heavy metals such as arsenic,
lead, mercury, and other toxic substances which requires the
utmost precautions and protections for handling, transporting, and
disposal. B. Hosting the disposal of coal ash means that residents
will face substantially higher risk of exposure to cancer causing
toxins during the transport, disposal, and storage of coal ash. C.
Heavy flow of more truck and train traffic will increase safety
issues such as accidents, spillage, fly ash, noise, and air pollution.
104:58 D. Transport and storage of coal ash would adversely
affect the economics of the community and the county. E. Studies
by the EPA and other agencies on the impact of mine disposal of
coal ash revealed potential health and environmental concerns that
should be more clearly addressed by state and /or federal
regulations. F. Coal ash should be stored on site at the facilities
operated by Duke Progress Energy by a method that prevents toxic
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exposure and contamination to humans and wildlife. Thank you
for your time and consideration. [APPLAUSE]
105:43 Watkins: Our next speakers this evening, Jim Jones.
106:06 Jones: Good evening. My name is Jim Jones and I live on Manns Chapel
Road here in Pittsboro. I'm a North Carolina native and have lived
in many parts of our great state. It has been my privilege to have
been a resident of Chatham County for 25 years. I love our people
and I love our county but I'm a concerned citizen. Duke Energy
wants to turn part of the county I love into a toxic waste dump.
They want to pump out a flooded clay mine, put in a protective
liner, and fill it with toxic coal fly ash. I am concerned that this a
temporary and not a permanent solution to this problem. I am a
concerned citizen.
106:56 Water is a precious commodity. We are now hearing
almost daily how water is becoming as valuable as gold to the
people in the western part of our nation. Lifestyles are being
threatened because of lack of water. In our community, we are
anticipating massive growth in our population as the vision of the
developers of Chatham Park has realized. If this coal fly ash
relocation project is allowed to continue in its current form, it will
threaten our water supply and those who depend on it. I am a
concerned citizen.
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107:37 The liner proposed will probably not leak next year, or the
next, but it will leak. While [ph] I hear reassurances that it will not
leak or that Duke Energy will be able to replace the liner if it does
begin to leak, I am reminded of some ship builders that claimed
that the Titanic was unsinkable. I am a concerned citizen.
108:06 The leaks from this mine may not cause a problem for me
or the problem —the people of my generation, but it will affect the
people in the generations that come after us. The solution before
us that's proposed is a short -term solution. We all wanted power
for decades, coal -fired power plants were the best way to go. The
solution to our power needs however has come at a price. We need
to have a long -term, not a short -term solution to this issue of toxic
coal fly ash. I am a concerned citizen.
108:48 My concern does not stop with this proposed site in a
county and community I love, but I'm also concerned for other
communities who have abandoned clay mines in their midst. The
volume of toxic coal fly ash to be disposed of is so great that it
cannot be contained in a single mine or even three. If this project
is allowed to move forward, other communities will be faced with
a very real probability that they will become a toxic waste
dumping ground as well. I am a concerned citizen. Can I have
two additional minutes, would that be possible?
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109:27 Watkins: I've only got about seven more people signed up, can I ask you to
just come back in a just minute and get your additional time.
Jones: That would be perfectly fine, thank you.
Watkins: Thank you, sir. [APPLAUSE] Our next speaker, Diana Hales.
[APPLAUSE]
109:57 Hales: Hello. I am Diana Hales, Chatham County Commissioner, and I
live in Siler City, North Carolina. We are here today because
Duke Energy has a 70 -year ash problem. Existing coal pits around
the state have failed and their contents are seeping into our public
waters. Instead of seeking a 21st century solution to permanently
neutralize these toxic residuals, Duke Energy will dig more pits
and transport their problems to Chatham and Lee Counties.
110:32 Our legislature made a law to allow Duke Energy to move
ash into so called structural fill pits and compress it against a 20-
year HDPE plastic liner to form twin 50 -foot tall mounds in
Moncure. The Frankenstein monster permit strips local
government authority, endangers public health, diminishes
economic prospects, and offers a temporary band aid, not a
solution. [APPLAUSE]
111:05 It is all in the name, the solid waste management facility
structural fill mine reclamation permit. Structural fill is a lie. This
is solid waste landfill but without normal protections. No local
government approval was required for this permit; no
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environmental impact study is required for this permit. Setbacks
from private residences and water wells have been reduced from
500 feet to 300 feet. Setbacks from property boundaries have been
reduced from 300 feet to 50 feet. Setbacks from surface waters
have been reduced to 50 feet. Distance from seasonal high
groundwater is table is only four feet.
111:52 Mine reclamation is another lie. This site plans show
extensive areas of new excavation. The existing quarry is but a
small part of the plan at each site. In the Army Corp of Engineers
permit, Charah stipulates the liner has a 500 -year life expectancy.
This is outrageous to say the least. [APPLAUSE] But then Charah
has no liability beyond 30 years. Charah also claimed in that
permit it was bringing in 3 million tons of coal ash when we know
it is closer to 20 million tons between Chatham and Lee sites.
112:36 Leachate pollutants are extremely relaxed for coal
combustion products. The permit allows Charah to use the state's
2T rules for metal toxicity. These rules allow high concentrations
of metals in milligrams per liter because the waste is not supposed
to be charged to surface waters. However, the trust is that millions
of gallons of Charah's leachate will go downstream in the Cape
Fear through a municipal waste water treatment facility. Most
waste water treatment plants do not do a good job at removing
metals from their waste stream because they use biological
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processes. In fact, two of the metals, Barium and Thallium, are not
included in the testing standards at all. All of these concentrated
toxic metals will travel downstream or become the sludge spread
on Chatham farmland.
113:36 Deny this Frankenstein permit that has been cobbled
together in a cauldron of special interests. Deny this permit
because it doesn't solve our coal ash problem. Our community has
a right to clean air and water, deny this permit. [APPLAUSE]
114:08 Watkins: Our next speaker, Maya Cricker [ph].
114:22 Cricker: I'm Maya Cricker. I live in north Chatham County. I have a BA
in biochemistry and a Ph.D. in genetics. I am deeply concerned
with the proposed transport and location of the coal ash landfills in
the Cape Fear River Basin.
114:41 If the coal ash is transported by truck, there will be an
estimated 400,000 truckloads, and we'll not only have the
pollution of coal ash residue along roadsides and yards, but the
pollution from diesel exhaust as well. And we've already heard
about the health effects from the coal ash itself, but I do I really
need to recount the health effects of diesel exhaust, of small
particulates and poly aromatic hydrocarbons on the undeveloped
immune systems of children and the lifelong systemic problems of
exposure it would engender [ph]?
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115:26 As for train transport, they do not have a great track record
when it comes to fossil fuels. [LAUGHTER] For the last six years
I have been monitoring the Haw River and some of the streams
that feed into it as a volunteer in the Haw River Assembly Citizen
Riverwatch Program. And over those six years I have witnessed
the increasing impairment of our river and streams that feed the
Cape Fear River. I have seen fewer sensitive organisms, higher pH
measurements, sometimes above nine. Higher phosphate and
nitrate levels and increasing turbidity. And now we're going to put
additional coal ash in Gold [ph] Creek?
116:18 I also defy any water treatment plant to cope with the heavy
metals and radioactive elements of coal ash. Our water resources
are already impaired and coal ash repositories will endanger our
drinking water.
116:39 In Chatham County we have a sustainable communities
program at our community college, we have builders constructing
LEED - certified buildings, we have an ever - growing number of
organic and other farms and new wineries, a biofuels company,
new county parks, new inns [ph]. We're developing an ecotourism
industry. We're attracting high tech companies because we can
offer a great quality of life. Coal ash repositories will reverse our
gains and damage our local economy. Our farms and our
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ecotourism businesses cannot operate with polluted water and air
and 400,000 truckloads of coal ash coming through.
117:33 Our economy will suffer from the perception that we are an
industrialized area rather than a community known for its rural
beauty and green housing and businesses. I am asking you to do
the jobs that we're paying you for, protecting our air and water.
[APPLAUSE] We're not paying you to protect the profits of
energy companies with bad business models [APPLAUSE] and
poor safety track records. So I am asking that you not permit the
transportation of the coal ash or let that they allow the construction
of landfills at the sites in Chatham and Lee Counties. Thank you.
[APPLAUSE]
118:33 F: Well done.
118:36 Watkins: Our next speaker, Laura Alutis [ph].
M: She left.
Watkins: Okay. Well, Harold Hayden [ph].
119:07 Hayden: Howdy. I'm Harold Hayden, a citizen of North Carolina—or
Chatham County. I want to talk to you about the Abilene paradox
in coal ash in North Carolina. Some of you have probably —very
few have heard of the Abilene paradox and I invite you to Google
it. But to sort of summarize and paraphrase it, it's basically I first
heard about this thing in a strategic management conference in
New York City back in the '90s which Dick Cheney was a keynote
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speaker at. But anyway, but my rendition of the Abilene paradox
is as follows.
119:42 Fred and Ethel were sitting out on their front porch one
afternoon sipping tea in downtown, small town Texas with their
son and daughter -in -law to discuss the topic of what should we do
today. Well, various ideas is tossed around, some interesting and
some whimsical [ph], and probably some observer and someone
said, "Let's go to Abilene for dinner." Well, Abilene was about a
two -hour drive away, nothing particularly noteworthy about the
notion was mentioned [ph], so they went on to the next idea topic
of what to do. Well, after eventually dismissing all of the other
ideas, "Well, okay, let's go to Abilene."
120:17 Well, the trip was long and hot, the restaurant was poor
service and everything. So anyway, they indulged and went on
back home. When they got back, sitting on the porch they were
reflecting on the adventure. Eventually each admitted they really
didn't want to go to Abilene and it was pretty much we've got to
decide something. And it's pretty much a natural, a mutual
indecision at that.
120:40 So exactly— that's what we have here with this coal ash
thing. There was a spill in the Virginia that spoiled the water and
the river there as well as in North Carolina. There was public
concern and outrage and surprisingly the North Carolina legislature
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was swift to act following [ph] tongue in cheek [ph] —these
are my words: we're going to take Duke to task on this mess —and
enacted legislation in an effort to make this so. There has been
considerable debate about the badness of coal ash waste, and I will
offer anyone who thinks this stuff is good, or even benign, is quite
familiar with the habits of the ostrich. And I'll quote from a song
by Steppenwolf by that same name: "Let's stick our heads into the
sand and pretend that all is grand, and hope that everything turns
out okay."
121:30 A few years ago, about 30 years ago, I was invited to
participate in a local activist group called GUARD, Goldston [ph]
United Against River Damage, who were trying to stop, and we
have been succeeded in stop [ph] coal strip mining in North
Carolina as I own a property on the road that the strip mine was to
be own. The coal company had applied to the state North
Carolina, had been actually granted an exploratory permit to allow
them to begin the process of strip mining here in North Carolina.
Well, it turns out the governing organization that issued the permit
didn't have the authority to do so, which leads to my point about
how Abilene figures into this mess.
122:10 We have the situation where perhaps well intentioned
people and organizations, or those hoping to make a quick buck or
shed some liability have stirred up a hornets' nest and are by
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intention or by accident either taking advantage of or just reacting
to the noise in their inboxes. I challenge anybody, whether you're
a member of the North Carolina Bar, Mensa, folks who love an
insurmountable challenge, or just listening to the voices in their
heads, to explore the tangled web of legalities, jurisdictions,
political positionings, and nuances that is the North Carolina coal
ash disposal debate. I invite to put your interests aside and pay a
little attention to your kids' welfare, and just as importantly their
progeny.
122:58 As the long -term effects of coal ash and it's storage and
issues related to storage are unknown, I personally think it would
be a disservice to our community, county, and state to accept the
challenge of storing and managing Duke Energy's byproducts.
Also, one of the early persons mentioned something about not
begging, I beg, I implore you, please do not let this happen. I'll
give you a big hug, I'll mow your yard— anything. Thank you
very much. V all have a [APPLAUSE]
123:36 Watkins: Our next speaker, Jeffrey Starkweather.
123:57 Strakweather: Hello. I speak tonight as a 43 -year resident of Pittsboro, a retired
attorney, a former Chatham County newspaper editor who served
on the Chatham County Economic Development Corporation from
2007 to 2013. I have read the resolution on coal ash and impacted
communities by the clean water in North Carolina and the
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arguments against the permits on the website of the Haw River
Assembly, both organizations of which I'm a proud member, and I
agree with all their concerns including degradation of the liners, air
pollution, safety issues, health issues from the heavy trucks, and of
course water quality issues.
124:28 As a longtime member of the of the Chatham County
Economic Development Corporation, I am deeply troubled by the
likely negative impacts of this toxic waste landfill on area property
values, long -term economic development prospects, and quality of
life. However, in addition to these issues, I want to focus on
another issue often ignored by the local government decision
makers, I mean state government excuse me, environment
and justice.
124:56 As a young newspaper editor and publisher in 1978, I had
direct experience with the dawn of the environmental justice
movement. That national movement got its start, as was
mentioned earlier, at the PCB landfill in Warren County in
basically a low income, minority community. But what many
people do not know is that landfill was originally planned for
Chatham County. As a result of secret negotiations with state
environmental officials and Chatham County commissioners.
Fortunately, our newspaper had excellent sources in county
government and we published that secret deal on the front page of
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our newspaper. The citizen uproar it resulted it was so
overwhelming that our commissioners immediately squelched the
deal and the state had to look elsewhere. Of course they chose an
even more impoverished and powerless community.
125:50 The Moncure, Haywood, Corinth, Brickhaven area,
southeastern Chatham, has for decades been under periodic and
persistent environmental, economic, and public health threat from
both polluting industries and various proposed hazardous and toxic
waste dumps. And that's probably true for the Lee County area as
well. This landfill is the latest environmental economic assault on
this community, or on these communities. And why is that?
Because it is an area with significant lower income, working class,
and minority communities. [APPLAUSE]
126:35 Do [ph] the powers to be in Duke Energy and the state
government, Raleigh, know [ph] have little political power to
challenge being dumped on again. Why are none of these dump
sites never proposed for location in Wake, Durham, Orange, or
other higher income communities? I think we all know the answer.
I have just one question for the Duke Energy executives, state
officials, and members of the general assembly who want to
preempt all local laws to dump this toxic coal ash on these lower
and working class communities. What would their assessment be
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of the concerns raised here tonight if the dumpsites were to be
proposed in their communities? Thank you. [APPLAUSE]
127:42 Watkins: Danielle Duclos [ph].
127:51 Duclos: Good evening. Thanks for hearing us tonight. First I want to read
this out loud because I'm rather new to the state and its beautiful
here, "It shall be the policy of this state to conserve and protect its
lands and waters for the benefit of all its citizenry." [APPLAUSE]
I just don't think that's going to wear out at any point.
128:23 My name Danielle Duclos. I am a citizen of Chatham
County for the last few years. I came here to study sustainability
technologies and sustainable agriculture at CCCC, and I'm a
fellow member of the human race as well. And I live here in
Pittsboro. And it's clear from everything that we've all been
saying that, and it's clear as our moral duty as who we are as
human beings who need to survive on this planet, we must all care
for and protect our resources, recognizing the trust costs and true
values of our actions using our minds and our hearts to do what is
right.
129:16 It's clear that we don't want the coal ash here. Everybody
has been expressing that. And we will not allow our natural
resources to be destroyed. We will protect our children and our
children's children, and that's in fact what our constitution says.
It's clear in this community that we share a vision, and a powerful
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sense of stewardship. We're about solutions here, not about
sweeping it under the rug, and that's what's bringing a lot of
people here and this is what this whole country and the world
needs, and we can't let that be washed away in mud, poison.
130:07 People here are piecing together the solutions, as well all
need to all around the world, for a future that makes sense, where
we can survive, and live good lives for our children, and our
children's children can enjoy life and admire us for doing the
world well and for caring, and don't regret us for our actions. So
we need to find the solutions that protect our community's true
wealth, and we've got to keep this clear. We have to act with clear
vision for clean, clear air and water. And indeed water is our most
precious commodity, and our land.
130:58 So we need to build on all the good things that we have
been doing with renewable energy, with —I've been helping out
Solarize, that's going on for the next month, people can sign up
again, but that's going to be just one part of all the things that are
popping up around here. And piece by piece we're figuring out the
puzzle. Duke must be methodical, use real problem - solving skills
for this problem to make sure this is handled responsibly. It is
simply unacceptable to pass the buck, to sweep it under the rug.
We need to find intelligent solutions, protecting what we value,
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and that really is possible. So we can't accept anything less than
that. Thank you. [APPLAUSE]
131:49 Watkins: Danielle Ocampo [ph].
131:58 Ocampo: Hi. My name is Danielle Ocampo. I am journalism major at the
University of Chapel Hill. This semester I have had the
opportunity to study coal ash and fracking, both of the disputes
[ph] that are going on in North Carolina, and it turns out that it's an
issue that is very near and dear to me. I grew in Sanford in Ward
2, that's the ward that Duke Energy plans to dump the coal ash.
My family now lives here in Pittsboro. Like many I'm already
stressed. Coal ash is a toxic substance. The information is there,
I've pulled all- nighters researching it, it's available to anyone who
wants it.
132:39 I know that my generation specifically lacks
representations and activity on issues like this. [APPLAUSE] But
I want to make it clear that my peers and I also do not agree. This
is a dangerous decision, and better alternative decisions exist and
have been presented to you several times. By passing these
permits you are poisoning us. I am here on behalf of the young
adult residents in North Carolina. It is us that will be responsible
for cleaning up this mess in the future, and I want to make it clear
that we are not in support of you passing these permits. Thank you
for your time. [APPLAUSE]
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133:26 Watkins: So that is the end of my list of the folks that signed up at the
registration desk. We'll do a couple of things here. First and
foremost, is there anybody that wants to speak that did not sign up?
One, two, three, four. All right, I'm going to start on this side of
the room if that's okay with you guys. Ma'am, since you stood up
and you're closest to me, you can go first.
133:51 F: Mine will be very short.
133:53 Watkins: Just please state your name and all that stuff for the record please.
134:00 Bodrie: My name is Sheila Bodrie [ph], I'm a resident of Chatham County.
I've been here for 24 years. Prior, however, to coming, and also
[ph] [INDISCERNIBLE] but for a time I've lived in southwest
Virginia in the coal fields where I worked as a geologist at the
Division of Mined Land Reclamation. And I have to say from
everything that I've read and heard about this whole process that I
don't see how this is such a charade that this is mined land
reclamation. This is not. Reclamation of a mined area should be
to improve the property back to as good as it was before, or better,
or to a higher purpose, like flat plan [ph] for a shopping center, it is
not to make it worse than it is for [APPLAUSE] I did not feel
that that was brought out enough by the other speakers, but from
my experience, this is not mined land reclamation. [APPLAUSE]
135:19 Watkins: We'll move next to —yes, ma'am.
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135:41 Wakefield Good evening. My name is Debbie Wakefield, I live between the
Rocky and the Deep River in Chatham County. Okay. Let's see.
Why is it necessary to move your byproduct coal ash to another
county? Coal ash is a direct product from Duke Energy power
plants, and there many in several states. So disposal of coal ash
would be Duke Energy's responsibility. Displacing your coal ash
will not address how to clean up that responsibility.
136:43 Displacing your coal ash only spread your coal ash only
spreads your toxic waste. I do not consider that a cleanup at all.
Displacing this very serious toxic waste will only remove the coal
ash problem to that site to another site, and in our case, dumped
into the clay mines in Moncure. Who will be responsible for your
toxic waste once it is displaced? I am very concerned about this
issue. I am surprised that it got as far as it has.
137:31 To me it's very simple to clean up the problem at the sites.
Make a taskforce, involve scientists, I don't know whether you've
done anything like that or not, but take a proactive role in solving
the problem on site. Please do not bring any of the coal ash to an
area that doesn't produce it. Thank you very much. [APPLAUSE]
138:07 Watkins: Go to the back of the room.
138:16 Luxton: My name is Terica Luxton [ph]. I signed up as a maybe because I
wanted to make sure everybody had a chance to speak. I've lived
in North Carolina nearly 40 years now. I have two sons that live in
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North Carolina, and grandchildren, that live extremely close to
both of the proposed coal sites —coal ash dumps in Lee County
and Chatham.
138:42 I brought pictures, I'm going to send them to you. The first
one says, it came from Charah's own website. Introduction. This
facility plan to reclaim the Colon Mine Site, located in Lee
County, N.C., with coal combustion products, structural fill. The
mine, once complete, we be reclaimed by encapsulating CCPs in a
lined containment in order to reestablish the mine cultures [ph] to
useful design. So they lied from the beginning because we'veI
had an eighth grade education, but I've studied for four years on
fracking, it made it easy to understand this stuff [LAUGHTER]
[APPLAUSE]
139:52 On number two, it shows a map of the proposed coal ash
dump, they call it a reclamation. I looked up the definition, it's
not. This is closer to a land desecration. Desecration meaning is
the act of depriving something of its sacred character, of the
disrespectful, contemptuous, and destructive treatment of that
which is held to be sacred or holy by groups or individuals. Our
families, our animals, our land, our water, and our air is our life.
They are sacred to us.
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140:43 Picture three, 71 % of the land they want to put coal ash on
has never been dug before. Never been dug for clay, never been
mined as they call it.
141:03 Number four, this is a graveyard —there is a graveyard in
Lee County. It's of an African- American World War I solider, his
name was McKinley Johnson. There are several members there.
They want to put that site as close as I am to you from that
gravesite. There is approximately 10 to 20 people there. Slaves
that gave their —that got freedom. One lady, her name was Dicey
Johnson. She took 50 lashes from the KKK and had the bravery,
the nerve to go to Raleigh and sue them. Why? Because it was
wrong.
141:58 We are fighting for their rights to rest in peace as they
fought for our rights to live safely in our homes, to not be bullied,
and to allowing harm of any sort coming to our families and
communities. Let us keep our rights to be safe. Don't dump this
on our watershed. That's what it is. Half of Lee County is a
watershed and they're wanting to dump it on us. Thank you for
listening. [APPLAUSE]
142:55 Voller: Randy Voller. I am speaking as a citizen and the immediate past
chair of the North Carolina Democratic Party. The party passed
resolutions that were pertaining to coal ash at its convention, July
7�h, 2014. So I wanted to enter them in to the record.
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143:15 The first resolution was in support of revising North
Carolina coal ash regulations. Whereas the byproducts called coal
combustion products, CCB, or coal - combustible residuals are
produced in large volumes during the production of electricity
from coal and power plants with federally mandated air pollution
control devices. Whereas such CCB may be beneficially reused
with the CCB provides a functional benefit like recycling into
concrete block or into drywall, and the relevant product
specifications and regulatory standards.
143:47 Whereas the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency
concluded in a study released on February 7th, 2014, quote,
"Environmental releases of constituents and potential concerns,
COPCs, from CCR fly ash, concrete, and FGD gypsum wallboard
during use by the consumer are comparable to or lower than those
from non -CCR products or at or below relevant regulatory and
health -based benchmarks for human and ecological receptors.
EPA supports the beneficial use of coal ash in concrete and FGD
gypsum and wallboard. And whereas the volumes of CCB
produced are so large as to exceed the demand for EPA supported
beneficial reuse, and this excess CCB must be disposed as a solid
waste.
144:38 "And whereas regulation of the disposal of the solid waste
is authorized under the Resource Conservation [ph] and Recovery
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Act. And although coal ash is exempt from regulation under
Subtitle C, Hazardous Waste, coal ash remains a solid waste
subject to regulation under Subtitle D, Non - hazardous Waste. And
whereas although coal ash is subject regulation under Subtitle D,
the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency determined in 2000 that
revision of Subtitle D regulations were urgently required for coal
ash disposal landfills and surface impoundments but no revisions
have been made to date. And whereas coal ash disposal landfills
and surface impoundments in Tennessee, Wisconsin, and North
Carolina have caused significant environmental damage to surface
and groundwater resources of the U.S. due to inadequate
regulation.
145:31 "Therefore be it resolved" —and this is the important part
"that regulations pertaining to the disposal of CCR, coal
combustion residuals, shall be revised by the Environmental
Protection Agency by December 2014. One, to establish
appropriate national minimum criteria for CCR disposal facilities
which do not exist now. Two, to include CCR surface
impoundments, which are not regulated at all now, in addition to
CCR landfills which are insufficiently regulated. Three, to apply
citing criteria of which there is only inadequate restrictions, similar
to the criteria used for municipal solid waste disposal facilities,
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especially meeting the criteria associated with proximity to surface
waters and ground waters.
146:20 "Four, to cause existing old CCR disposal facilities to meet
the revised standards or cease operation and close application of
appropriate new standards. And five, to cause existing CCR
disposal facilities that are either currently contaminating [ph]
surface or ground water, or too near two surface or groundwater
resources to do all of the following. Have the cumulated CCR
excavated. Have the CCR beneficially reused or relocated to an
appropriately cited and lined disposal facilities and have the
impacted property remediated."
146:53 The question before you is whether this actually meets
those five requirements that were respectfully asking. And at this
convention there were citizens from over 72 counties and the state
and approximately 1,400 citizens in attendance. This was voted on
unanimously. I'd like to submit it to the record. Thank you very
much. [APPLAUSE]
147:16 Watkins: Sir? You can leave it right there, that'll be fine. Okay. So last call
for anyone that did not previously sign up that wants to speak.
Okay. We'll move back to the folks that wanted to speak
additionally. The first one I already had on the list was Mr. Jones
that asked for about two additional minutes. So we'll let him the
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standard. So anyone that comes up at this point, you have two
minutes.
147:50 Jones: I'll do my best to keep it to two minutes. Again, Jim Jones,
resident of Chatham County. My concern isn't just for the
residents of Chatham County and Lee County, but also for all those
communities that live along those transportation routes that'll be
used to move the coal fly ash to these disposal sites. I do not
believe you can transport millions of tons of toxic material
hundreds of miles and not have accidents or lose material along the
way.
148:25 We have all been behind trucks transporting sand which
use the mandated covers for their load and they still spread sand all
along their transportation route. The transportation plan for coal
fly ash will contaminate all those communities between the coal
ash dumps and the proposed disposal sites. I am a concerned
citizen.
148:50 The dangers of the materials which will leak from this site
have been documented by others this evening. The effects of a
leaking disposal site are not immediately apparent, but in 10, or 20,
or 30 years, health problems will start to increase, not just around
the sites, but along all the places where this material is transported.
That would inevitably increase the cost the Duke Energy as
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lawsuits come back for healthcare coverage. I am a concerned
citizen.
149:25 So there must be an alternative. There must be some way
to dispose of this material that everyone agrees is dangerous in a
safer and more permanent fashion. And I believe there is such a
way. We've heard others describe it. I've had a conversation with
a friend of mine who owns a concrete plant, and he informs me
that coal fly ash is commonly used a component of concrete. If
Duke Energy were to place concrete batch plants at each of their
coal fly ash dump sites, they could fabricate a variety of preformed
concrete products, everything from highway construction barriers,
to components for bridges, or even pieces for a light rail system
could be fabricated. Duke Energy could then turn their liability
into an asset. They would be able to have a permanent solution
and not a temporary solution.
150:20 I thank you for the opportunity to come before you this evening
and to hear the concerns of my neighbors and friends this evening.
Thank you very much. [APPLAUSE]
150:33 Watkins: Do we have anyone else that would like to step back to the podium
at this time? I've got one coming behind you, I've got you though.
150:56 R. Whitley: Hi, Rhonda Whitley. The other thing that is really very interesting
to me as we discuss this is from an environmental, ecotourism type
opportunity, I have no doubt that if they do start with further
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digging to make more mines so they can reclaim it, then there have
been many fossils found that area including that humongous
crocodile that was found and became actually very famous, but it's
all in this area, in Triassic Basin, and that's part of the Triassic
Basin. It would be much better to have an entrepreneur or
someone of that type come to do mining, but they're really doing
archeological digs, and then that would give our community an
opportunity for some of the ecotourism instead of having to just
pick it up and dump it and take our artifacts from us as well,
because that's a very natural history type place over there from all
the things that I've been looking at. So, thank you.
152:02 Watkins: Thank you. [APPLAUSE]
152:09 Strickland: Again, my name is Donna Strickland, and I want to apologize
upfront because this is not directed towards DENR. I have not
been given an opportunity to ask questions since I have become
more knowledgeable about coal ash to anyone from Duke Energy
or from Charah. And I just have one question for them. And that
is, is there anything at all good about coal ash? Anything?
F: No.
F: No.
152:39 Strickland: Because I have done extensive research, my friend has done
extensive research, and we have found nothing except that it was
burned to create electricity, and yes, I love my electricity, but if I
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were given another alternative, I might would have picked that
over the coal. [APPLAUSE]
153:00 So I used to teach and there would be times that my school
would get some bad PR, and when I would hear how bad things
were from the community, I would just cringe and it break my
heart. And all I can say is how thick is your skin, Mr. Hughes, that
you can sit here and hear your business bashed like it's been
bashed for the last two nights, because I couldn't deal with it. I
don't know how you do. Thank you. [APPLAUSE]
153:36 Watkins: Is there anyone else? Okay. Do you want to speak again? Yes,
you, you're the only one that raised your hand.
153:47 F: Oh, I couldn't see with all the people. [INDISCERNIBLE] This is
154:23 Watkins
154:26 Jackson:
154:27 Watkins
154:29 Jackson:
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actual water. It looks like the actual water that they showed online
that comes out of the faucets in the town of Pines [ph], and I read
about other towns, Uniontown [ph], and so forth that has water that
looks like that. In Uniontown the ash makes the paint peel off of
people's cars. And you wonder what it does to this out of your
body [ph] when that happens.
Ma'am? For the record, could you restate your name please?
Arlene Jackson.
Thank you.
One thing that really concerns me is that the fact that these liners
have not been tested for coal ash. They've been tested for

NC DENR
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household garbage waste only, and the companies will say that. So
I think a study needs to be done. We have just the person to do
that, he is a Wake Forest professor named Dennis Lemly. He has
agreed to do the proposal starting immediately. It will take him 30
days to complete. His fee is $10,000. Now that's not very much
considering all the money that Duke throws around to frivolous
things like good neighbor commercials on TV and so forth.
155:08 So I hope that Duke will agree to pay that $10,000 to test
the liners down at the Asheville site. Dr. Lemly is anxious to get
started. I don't think our county should have to pay that fee. I
don't think DENR should have to pay, or the Army Corp of
Engineers. It should be Duke Charah that pay that $10,000 fee.
155:31 In the town of Uniontown that I just mentioned, it was
exactly like ours, at a clay composite liner, a geomembrane liner, a
leachate system was in place, a protective cover, and only one ton
of coal ash, and yet the people got extremely sick and the paint
peeled off their cars. EPAs studies have shown that in a best case
scenario, a 10 -acre landfill leaks 10 gallons per day, 36,500 gallons
over a 10 -year period of time, which is an amount guaranteed to
filtrate the drinking water supply. Thank you very much.
[APPLAUSE]
156:22 Watkins: Thank you. Is there anyone else that would like to speak? Okay.
Well, I'm going to leave the podium open until nine o'clock, but
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I'll remind everyone in the room, if you didn't speak tonight but
you would like to submit written comments, they will be accepted
until 5 p.m. on May the 16th, 2015. Written comments should be
submitted to, again, the email address or the postal address found
on the handouts available on the registration desk. If you feel that
that's not adequate, please ask one of the DENR staff here and
we'll get you the appropriate addresses here tonight.
157:00 Based on public comments received, and the information
submitted in the permit applications, we'll make recommendations
to the Division of Water Resources, the director of the Division of
Energy, Mineral and Land Resources, and the Division of Waste
Management regarding the final decision on whether to issue or
whether to modify the draft permits. Again, we'll leave the
podium open for speaker s until nine o'clock, but I would like to
thank everyone for your attendance tonight and your interest in this
issue. So I will— again, I'll leave the podium open until nine.
157:37 F: Thank you.
157:40 Girolami: I have one more thing to say.
157:43 Watkins: Name, please.
157:44 Girolami: Martha Girolami. We had over 200,000 comments against
fracking recently. I don't know, you didn't get that many
comments here, but we haven't got the final number about what is
written in and all that are submitted and on the six permits. But
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you're not even really interested in whether we want this or not,
that's the sad part, because things have gone on way before we
even got involved and got asked what to do. So you're in a real
bind, and we are too, because I don't think y'all can say no
because of what the legislature has done, because of the weakening
of DENR and the threats against you and your job that go on daily.
158:44 F: 20% cut off [ph].
158:45 Girolami: We can't have this happen. You force us to fight, to put all our
time into it, to demonstrate against it, to do direct action, to try to
scrape together money for a lawsuit to do I don't know what, but
DENR no longer is thought to protect us. But you are —we're
playing by the rules. We're talking to you. But before the rules
even happen, Charah bought their land. Duke had made the
decision of what it wanted. It talked to Coal Ash Management
Act. What chance do we have here? [APPLAUSE] Thank you.
159:46 [INAUDIBLE]
[END RECORDING]
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