20150042 Ver 1_DENR Public Hearing, Sanford 04.13.15_20150508

NC DENR
DWR Public Hearing, Sanford 13Apr2015
Bass:
Sheldon Bass
Berkshard:
George Berkshard
Bray:
Donna Bray
Bruce:
Ashley Bruce, Sustainable Sandhills
Calendine:
Jake Calendine
Chafe:
Lorna Chafe, Triangle Raging Grannies
Champion:
Deborah Champion
Cole:
William Cole
Crawley:
Dawn Crawley
Culuxton:
Tara Culuxton
Dunnagan:
Kate Dunnagan, BREDL Communications Director
Edwin:
Ben Edwin
Finch:
Bob Finch
Gray:
Gail Gray
Geronamy:
Martha Geronamy
Hall:
Debbie Hall
Hayes:
Richard Hayes
Hogan:
Judy Hogan
Holland:
David Holland
Jackson:
Arlene Jackson
Johnson:
Coretta Johnson
Lewis:
Tamara Lewis
Mayfield:
Calvin W. Mayfield
Moore:
Shawn Moore
Puricz:
Kate Puricz
Simpson:
Cindy Simpson
Smith:
Irene Smith
Stanley:
Lynn Stanley
Strickland:
Donna Strickland
Taylor:
Charles Taylor
Tipton:
Johnsie Lee Ray Tipton
Vause:
Arlo Vause
Vick:
Teresa Vick
Whitley:
Rhonda Whitley
K. Wood:
Keely Wood
N. Wood:
Nick Wood, NC WARN
H. Young:
Harold Young
L. Young:
Laura Young
Watkins:
Jason Watkins, Division of Waste Management
M /F:
Unidentified Male /Female Speaker

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DWR Public Hearing, Sanford BApr2015
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[TECHNICAL COMMENTS] [INAUDIBLE]
6:23 Watkins: Okay, folks, we need to settle in, we're getting the hearing started,
please [ph]. Before we begin, I'll ask that everyone turn off their
cell phone and pagers as a courtesy to everyone in the room. My
name is Jason Watkins [ph]. I'm the appointed hearing officer for
this evening for the Department of Environment and Natural
Resources. I'm the operations branch head for the Division
of Waste Management Solid Waste Section.
6:50 This hearing is being held under the authority of the Coal
Ash Management Act of 2014, the Mining Act of 1971, and Title
15A of the North Carolina Administrative Code, Chapter
02H.0504 [ph]. This is an environmental public hearing for the
Division of Water Resources, 401 water quality certification. The
Division of Energy, Mineral and Land Resources draft marked by
permits and the Division of Waste Management draft
structural build [ph] permits needed by Green Meadows LLC and
Charah, Inc., in order to reuse coal ash with coal mines out here in
Lee County, and the Brickhaven 42 mine in Tract A [ph] in
Chatham County.
7:36 The purpose of the hearing tonight is to obtain public
comment on all four of the draft permits, and on the certification.
A written record of these proceedings will be prepared for being
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put into the public record. For this reason, the audio of tonight's
hearing will be recorded. Written comments received by May the
16th, 2015, will also be included as part of the public record.
Written comments may be submitted to the email address or postal
address that's found on the handouts available at the registration
desk in the lobby. Equal weight will be given to both written and
oral comments.
8:14 At this time, I would like to introduce representatives from
the Department of Environment and Natural Resources, as well as
any elected officials that are present. From the Department of
Natural Resources, tonight we have Tracy Davis, Director of the
State Division of Energy, Mineral and Land Resources, and Linda
Culpepper, Director of the State Division of Waste Management.
8:40 For the , are there any local government officials in
place here this evening? Would you mind standing up? All right,
thank you. I appreciate your attendance [ph]. So at this time, we'll
go forward with the public comment section. We'll hear from the
audience members who signed up to speak tonight. To ensure that
we hear from everyone who wishes to speak, there will be a three-
minute time limit for providing comments. keep track of
time and you will be provided a sign right here below me
indicating when you have one minute left, 30 seconds left, and
when your time is up.
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9:19 Please keep your comments concise and limited to tonight's
subject. Comments that address specific timetables [ph] or
technical ordinance for draft permit will be most useful in our
review process. If possible, speakers are asked to provide a written
copy of their comments, as well. Cross - examination of the
speakers will not be allowed. I may ask for clarification, if needed.
We ask that everyone respect the right of others to speak without
interruption. To ensure that everyone has a clear view of the
proceedings, we ask that you refrain from waving signs in the
meeting area.
9:56 We may ask you at some point in time, for all the folks who
have signs here, to hold those up so that we can get a photo which
will go into the record. I'll now call on the speakers in order of
which they registered. To ensure our records are accurate, please
when you step to the podium to my right, please clearly state your
name and, if applicable, any community or other organizations that
you're representing. So our first speaker this evening will be
Dawn Crawley [ph].
10:44 Crawley: Yes, my name is Dawn Crawley, and I live at 2930 Colon Road,
directly connected to the property that is in question. I have a
small farm; I have ducks, chickens, milk goats which we consume
the milk and cheese, miniature donkeys, horses, and a garden, and
I also have fruit trees and other things that we had planted. Well,
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my property— somebody said, "Well, we can hook y'all up to
municipal water and cure your problem." Well, I have municipal
water; you can't drink it, but I have it.
11:14 But I also have—my water is a pond and creek and springs,
and the springs come up through my pasture. They're just running
across the pasture, so I can't fence off a part of the property. I
wouldn't have anything left, and my animals consume this water,
and I consume products from my animals. There's children next
door to me, and they play outside all summer. They have a
swimming pool, and the power lines —the high tension power lines
run directly beside their house, so they'll have —even with the
trees blocking mine, there would be a direct access to their house
down the power line.
11:54 Because this is not going to be in the clay pits; they call it a
mine, but it's going to be a mountain, and it will blow off that
mountain, it's going to be open and then look, about a couple
weeks ago, I dug a hole in the yard right behind my house which is
their borderline property, and I didn't dig down a foot before I hit
water. So they can say how low the water table is, but in the wet
time of the year, it's up at the top. It's not—like I said, I have it
seeping out of my pastures all the time, all year round.
12:28 They're just trying to pass the buck here. They've got
Duke's hired Charah; Charah's put Green Meadows, and nobody
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wants to take liability. And once this stuff is polluted, blowing
through the air and into the water through ground seepage, they're
going to wash out and have water, not just the leachate [ph] but the
water running through there, it's going to be blowing everywhere
and it's going to pollute my whole property.
12:51 I let my doors open. I hang my clothes on the line. I'm
going to have sit there with the—if I stay there —with the windows
shut, running up my power bill. I have one of the lowest power
bills; I just got a thing —three things from Duke Energy saying
how low my power bill was, because I hang clothes on the line and
keep the windows open and doors open. And they're just—
government is supposed to protect us but they're not protecting on
us; they're just dumping on us.
13:16 Thing is, though, we're praying that this won't happen. We
don't want to end up in the funeral home.
[APPLAUSE]
Watkins: Thank you, ma'am. Our next speaker is Sheldon Bass [ph].
13:43 Bass: Hello, I'm Sheldon Bass. I also live at 2930 Colon Road. Dawn
failed to mention we also raise Australian Shepherd puppies that
we sell, yearly. My dogs will be affected by this. She never
mentioned that ground water also feeds my pasture, my grass. I
don't irrigate with city water, which as she says, we can't drink it
anyway. So my pastures will be condemned by toxins —heavy
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metal toxins from this coal ash dump, which my grass will suck up,
my animals will eat and probably die, which is not a good thing.
14:16 I've worked in the industry all my life. I've been around
toxic stuff from Union Camp up there in Franklin, Virginia, to
Occidental in Wilmington. I've worked at all these sorry places.
Any time I've complained, they said, "Man, you just need to move
on, find you another job. We'll put you on another job site." No
one wants to fix the problem.
14:36 Moving a toxic waste dump from a toxic area to my area
does not fix this problem. Wilmington is still a toxic contaminated
area; I don't care how much dirt they dig out for the next 20 years
to bring to Colon Road. Colon Road is not this [ph]. This is not
the solution, is not to bring it to me and bury it in my backyard,
and they're literally 1,000 feet from my fence. Thank you very
much.
[APPLAUSE]
Watkins: Our next speaker is Judy Hogan [ph].
15:35 Hogan: I'm Judy Hogan. I live in Moncure on Moncure Pittsboro Road. I
live half a mile from the Deep River in Lee County. Both the
Brickhaven and Colon Road designated coal ash dump sites are
within five miles of me by air. Moncure Pittsboro Road has very
heavy traffic now of commuters, school buses, trucks carrying
bricks, logs, plywood, chemicals.
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16:03 Now, there are probably already 120 to 140 trucks a day
passing every five to six minutes, coming and going to our
industrial district along Corinth Road, often exceeding the speed
limit, which is 45 for the curve above me. People who live on that
curve and other curves we have regularly have trucks wreck in
their front yard.
16:28 At 120, 140 -30 ton coal ash dump trucks within 12 hours;
that's a big truck every two and a half or three minutes. The CSX
train track is one mile away, and when we go to our local post
office, we are less than 100 yards from the CSX train track. If the
permits go through and we know DENR is no longer seriously
willing or able to protect our environment, I won't be able to live
in my house, grow vegetables, fruit, and raise chickens, nor will I
be able to sell this little farm where I'd hoped to die at a ripe old
age.
17:04 I live very simply on a fixed income. At 77, I'm still
healthy, but I won't stay here to be poisoned. The trucks and rail
cars carrying coal ash to Colon Road are also likely to use my
road. Hundreds of people live in these targeted areas; few of us are
rich, all of us value our land, our gardens, our pets and farm
animals, and our children. We don't want our women to abort
their babies, or babies to be born malformed or little children to
have nerve damage and cancer.
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17:40 Coal ash should not be moved. I have good friends in Lee
County; I have taught at CCCC in Sanford, even in this building. I
have fought against fracking with my Lee County neighbors and
now we are all fighting against Duke Energy's plan to introduce
genocide into our American democracy. Duke's plan is criminal.
DENR needs to deny their permits for Green Meadows that allows
Duke to shift its own coal ash problem onto the good people of Lee
and Chatham counties. Thank you.
[APPLAUSE]
Watkins: Our next speaker, Johnsie Lee Ray Tipton [ph].
18:30 Tipton: My name is Johnsie Lee Ray Tipton and I live in Colon, what you
19:05
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might say ground zero beside the railroad tracks. Sanford is a
beautiful, progressive community. The logo, Lee County
committed today for a better tomorrow how can there be a better
tomorrow when Duke Energy's toxic coal ash is dumped into our
communities? Toxic coal ash equals loss of homes, loss of health,
brain tumors, liver cancer, kidney cancer, and more health
problems.
Loss of communities people move away. They've
already started moving away. Loss of wildlife; loss of our rivers
and streams; 16 species of fish in North Carolina have already
been wiped out. I do not want coal ash seeping under the

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windowsills of my home in Colon, which sits directly along the
railroad tracks where a train depot once stood.
19:30 I do live at ground zero. Coal ash ingredients: mercury,
lead, thalium; my household garbage has none of these ingredients.
My postage stamps carry the message of liberty, justice; let there
be justice for Colon, Osgood, Moncure, Lee and Chatham
counties. North Carolina, this beautiful state, protect your citizens.
Say no to corporations such as Duke Energy. Let us have a better
tomorrow.
20:00 And a little history I wanted to point out: Colon was first
known as Butner, but was later changed to Colon in honor of
Colonel C.O. Sanford, who was the chief civil engineer for the
Raleigh and Augusta airline railroad, which was built in 1892,
from Raleigh to Sanford, and I might say that my house is the
oldest house in Colon. It was built in 1892 and stands along the
railroad tracks. Thank you.
[APPLAUSE]
Watkins: Bob Finch [ph].
20:47 Finch: My name is Bob Finch. I'm a resident of Lee County, North
Carolina. My major concern is the quality of life that we're
deteriorating here. Prior to this evening, I came and had met a
gentleman to think about relocating here, and he told me that he
probably won't relocate as fracking come here and coal ash. He
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said, "You don't have to worry about fracking until the price of
natural gas reaches about $75."
21:08 I'm unaware of that, but we're in a bad spot when people
don't want to move here, don't want to invest here. You affect the
economic outcome of every citizen here. There would be no jobs,
there would be no growth. Thank you.
[APPLAUSE]
Watkins: Rhonda Whitley [ph].
21:38 Whitley: Hi, my name is Rhonda Whitley. I live in Moncure. I just recently
22:04
22:32
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purchased this home in July of 2015 for my big move back south
from—to the south from Wisconsin. And I grew up in South
Carolina. I was immediately horrified when I moved my
household belongings down in February to learn that coal ash is
moving to my community by the millions of tons.
I relocated here for health and family expectations and
reasons, and now I feel like I've made just a huge mistake. The fly
ash and leachate are major concerns. I, along with many others,
get water from our well, and also own a small orchard of 15 fruit-
producing trees. I am deeply afraid of the selenium, mercury, lead,
aromatic hydrocarbons all known to be in coal ash.
As a physician, I am quite knowledgeable about the risks of
these heavy metals and compounds, and I am terrified. With a BS
in biology and an emphasis in ecology and mammalian studies, I

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also know the environment is in grave danger. Additionally, I
worry very much about the children that are going to be expected
to be in a school bus, traveling long distances from Moncure along
a lot of the proposed trucking routes, twice daily, from the time
they're in kindergarten until they graduate.
23:00 These toxins, we all know, can cause birth delays, birth
defects, developmental delays, and cancer. We know these
elements will kill fish, birds, amphibians, reptiles, and mammals.
Horses, goats, and sheep are especially at risk. I feel strongly that
baselines of sample soil should be taken, and this needs to be very
carefully monitored, and that's been one of my big concerns is I'm
not seeing a very good plan, if any, to have that kind of monitoring
done.
23:32 Also, I think that the plans for the dump are really thrown
together and very rushed, and poorly planned and poorly rushed is
going to be a very big problem. I live on the other side of the fire
track the other side of the tracks from the fire department and the
EMTs; I'm wonder if our—railroad line is going to tie up that line
and they're going to be hundreds of affected with significant 15- to
20- minute delays for our healthcare and fire department, along
with police.
24:07 The trains —the silica sands in Wisconsin did this all the
time. 60 days does not give the public enough time to react. I'm
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very deeply disappointed that local governments no longer have
much control over what's going to happen and even being able to
say no, and it will be overridden by the state. I feel like I've not
moved to a democratic society, but more totalitarian. I am deeply
dismayed to find out that this is where I chose to live and have my
little piece of utopia.
24:39 So please, don't shove the coal ash down our throats.
[APPLAUSE]
Watkins: Our next speaker: Donna Strickland [ph].
25:01 Strickland: Good evening. My name is Donna Strickland, and I live at 1708
25:24
25:57
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Woodridge Dr. here in Sanford. If I were to take and dump this
container full of coal ash in this room, it would have very little
impact on you. But if I were to fill this room with 8 million tons of
coal ash, this audience would be buried multiple times.
My point: the sheer volume of 8 million tons of anything,
be it feather, chocolate, or coal ash, will greatly impact the
environment. My home is on the south side of Lee County, so the
coal ash dump —not mine reclamation, structural field,
impoundment or whatever other fancy name Duke Energy can
invent, it's still a dump, so it won't greatly impact my life.
Oh, no; wait a minute. I drink water from the river, and
that is my fear and argument for not wanting Duke Energy's coal
ash dump in our community. In 1996, Hurricane Fran plowed

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through the center of North Carolina and we experienced major
flooding of all of our rivers for days. I have photographs over here
that I took at that time, not knowing that I would have, 20 years
later, need for them.
26:29 Anyway, my concern is not if we experience another
hurricane equal or greater than Fran, but when we will. The dump
being located on wetlands in a flood plain is a threat to everyone
who drinks Cape Fear river water from Lee County to Wilmington.
Will Charah's engineering capabilities be able to harness mother
nature's wrath in the form of a raging, flooding river, and keep this
dump from floating downstream?
27:00 Lee County citizens are not the only North Carolina
citizens who will be impacted by this coal ash dump. I beg the
Army Corps of engineers and DENR to use every environmental
law that the federal government has to stop Duke Energy and
Charah from dumping 8 million tons of coal ash on our
community.
27:21 Lastly, Duke Energy, be the good neighbor. Keep your
coal ash problem where the problems are, and don't bring them to
Lee and Chatham counties to deal with it forever. Thank you.
[APPLAUSE]
Watkins: Next speaker: Arlene Jackson [ph].
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27:50 Jackson: Good evening. My name is Arlene Jackson and I live in Sanford,
North Carolina. Duke Energy might be in the business of
providing light, but they sure do seem to enjoy keeping us all in the
dark. They never told us that the liners they're planning to use
have never been tested to contain heavy metals. Dr. Windley [ph]
said that the Asheville airport would be the ideal place to conduct
the first field study and gather some performance data.
28:17 This study should be done before any coal ash is brought to
Chatham or Lee County. They never told us that treating leachate
would put a terrible burden on our treatment plants. One plant in
Marion, Alabama, found that out the hard way. The EPA had to
step in and prevent any more leachate from coming to them. Local
residents are now suing the treatment plant because the odors
coming from the plant are so unbearable that many of them have
had to leave their homes. I would hate for this to happen to our
treatment plant.
28:49 Duke Energy never told us there was a plan B and a plan C.
Amy Dowrimple [ph] asked them many times where would the
coal ash go if the DENR release proved the site unsuitable. Duke
Energy has listed all of its options in this document. First, they are
going to bring the coal ash to the Moncure site. If that doesn't
work, plan B would be to bring it to Lee County. If that doesn't
work out, then plan C is to carry it to the Anson County landfill in
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Polkton, North Carolina. They get $3.50 per ton, but Duke Energy
chooses not to afford that. Shouldn't Lee and Chatham County get
$3.50 per ton instead of the $1.50 per ton they offered Lee County?
After all, most of the coal ash will be put on land that has never
been mined.
29:38 Everyone must read an article online called "Closing the
Flood Gates: How the Coal Industry Is Poisoning Our Waters and
How We Can Stop It." Technology already exists to clean up the
waste stream that the energy companies dump into our rivers. This
EPA rule is called Option 5, or the Zero Discharge rule. It is used
at four plants in the US and some foreign countries. It will cost
less than 1% of their total revenue.
30:11 In summary, I would like to say that Dr. Windley should be
asked to submit a proposal to conduct his study, and I would like
everyone to read the story, "Closing to Flood Gates: How the Coal
Industry Is Poisoning Our Water and How We Can Stop It." There
are solutions out there, and Duke Energy needs to step up to the
plate and begin using Option 5 and the Zero Discharge rule. They
should do this voluntarily and not be forced to do it; they should do
it because it's the right thing to do. No one likes to be forced to do
anything; for example, forcing Lee and Chatham County to take
the toxic waste is not a solution. It's just a Band -Aid that will
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allow the problem to continue for many generations yet to come.
Thank you very much.
[APPLAUSE]
Watkins: Deborah Champion [ph].
31:20 Champion: Hello, my name is Deborah Champion. Duke Energy has a 70-
year old problem of coal ash that's sitting at its plant outside of
Charlottesville. It's been sitting there collecting more coal ash for
70 years. In November is when the people of Lee County first
found out that we were being targeted for millions and millions of
tons of their problem. That's why everyone's in this room tonight,
because now their problem all the sudden has become our problem.
32:02 We've had everyone from our state elected officials sell us
out to our local government that we have not been able to count on
right now. And now we look to DENR. You're our last resource.
You have permits sitting in front of you, permits which you can
deny or you could embellish on some of the restrictions,
constrictions that they have to abide by. We need some baseline
testing; you need to assure the people when all other forms of
government have failed on us, we need from you some assurances
that you are going to look out for the health of all of these people
in this room here.
32:47 Up to now, no one is doing that for us, and Duke Energy is
buying their way into dumping all of their crap in our area, and it's
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not right, sir. It's not right. It's just not right. It's not what a
democracy is made of, when you have people who have no voice
left in government any further. We need you. We need DENR.
You are our last resource. Please don't let us down.
[APPLAUSE]
Watkins: Our next speaker is Debbie Hall [ph].
33:48 Hall: Hi, I'm Debbie Hall. I live in Sanford, North Carolina, and I thank
you so much for hearing us this evening and I hope you're really,
really listening. And I have to say, I really hate to speak after
Deborah Champion. That was really good.
34:02 As a resident of Lee County and a member of
EnvironmentaLEE, I have many concerns about Duke Energy
dumping 8 million tons of coal ash in our beautiful county. My
concerns involve the groundwater, the fact that there's been no
assessment for road damage that will most certainly happen as this
coal ash is moved. Train and truck traffic involved that will keep
EMS from traveling to certain parts of the county is a huge concern
for me.
34:32 Air quality, especially in the Colon- Osgood community
where I've had the privilege of working with and making many
friends in the past few months. Liners —not if they will leak, but
when they will leak. Liability: who owns the coal ash once it's
loaded onto trucks and trains, and leaves its point?
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34:58 But one of my greatest concerns is this rush to permit. This
is not a reclamation project; the very fact that Duke —this plan of
Duke's was such a surprise to this community certainly indicates
their willingness —lack of willingness to work with us here. They
had no intention of working with this county or they would have
let us know much, much earlier than they did. The bullying of this
community and the great social injustice of the placement of this
dump is not acceptable to us, and I hope it's not acceptable to you.
35:38 We're counting on you to protect our communities, our
people, our environment. This certainly reeks of dirty industry
with dirty money, coming into our homes and polluting and I hope
and pray that you will stop, that you will not grant this permit—
these permits. Thank you.
[APPLAUSE]
Watkins: Tara Culuxton [ph]?
36:23 Culuxton: Hello. My name is Tara Culuxton. I have lived here in Sanford
nearly 40 years. I have two sons and grandchildren that live
extremely near both the proposed coal ash dumps for Lee and
Chatham. They are between them on Lower Moncure Road but a
few miles —but as the crow flies, and the coal ash flies, not very
far. They are right in the center of the traffic area of the trucks and
the railroads that will carry that toxic waste to the megadumps.
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37:02 They say pictures say a thousand words. I wish I could
have made a copy of these pictures big enough for the whole
audience to see, but unlike Duke Energy and Charah, Inc., my
budget is limited. I will be here all night, and be glad to show
them to anyone, or you can go to EnvironmentaLEE.org, and find
them, too.
37:28 Picture one came from Charah's own website, explaining
this proposed site, saying, "Introduction: this is facility planned to
reclaim the coal and mine site located in Lee County, North
Carolina, with coal combustion products, structural field. The
mine, once complete, will be reclaimed by encapsulated CPPs in a
lined containment in order to reestablish the mine cultures to a
useful design."
38:20 So they started out with a lie. Picture two shows a map of
the proposed coal ash dump. They call it reclamation but this is
not; this is closer to a land desecration. Our families, animals,
land, water, and air is our life; should that not be considered
important?
38:48 Picture three shows 71% of the land that they want to put
coal ash on has never been dug for clay or mined, as they call it.
Picture four; there is a graveyard there with many family members
of McKinley Johnson, an African- American World War soldier.
His grandmother, Dicey Johnson was a historical brave lady who,
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after being dragged from her house in front of her children, and
taking 50 lashes from the KKK, took them to court in Raleigh.
Thank you.
[APPLAUSE]
Watkins: David Holland [ph].
39:53 Holland: Thank you. I've been putting grapevine wreaths on Mr. Johnson's
grave for a few years now. Ladies and gentleman, I'd like to thank
you for allowing me to speak. I'm David Holland. I live in
Osgood, North Carolina. I'm the proud owner of the original
Fairview Dairy on Farrell Road. The old Yarborough [ph]
homestead is my home. The grain silo still stands, the barns have
been rebuilt.
40:24 I have a dairy goat herd with American Dairy Goat
Association, true blood registered Anglo- Nubian goats. I drink
their milk. One of the reasons for their good milk is the well that
comes out the water that comes out of my well. That well is over
100 years old. Since this well is within 1,000 feet of the boundary,
I except it should be done on the baseline testing.
40:56 The tributary creek that runs out of there runs through my
family's land; we have about 40 acres there where test station 1 is.
In 401, it states that there's —they have to negotiate access. We
haven't heard from them. That tributary also goes under the
railroad track; where it goes under is a brownstone tunnel, hand-
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laid back originally. Hardly any mortar, it's vaulted ceiling, stone
floor. When the blasting begins, what's going to happen to that
tunnel under CSX railroad?
41:42 The groundwater test levels, according to 401, they're
based on the test wells at the Old Lee County sanitary landfill,
which is on the south end of the county, in the sand hills. The
geology is not the same. There's got to be closer groundwater
monitoring wells than that to be tested. We've sent registered
letters to Green Meadows and haven't had no reply. The rainfall is
based on RDU, not Sanford.
42:23 Where's my standing? I'm a former Marine —thank you,
ma'am. I served two years at Camp Lejeune. I'm one of the
victims of the water down there. I'll be going to the VA the rest of
my life. V all will be paying for it. There's over a million people
like me. Is that what we've got to look forward to in Sanford,
brick capital of the world, or is it going to be coal ash capital of the
world?
[APPLAUSE]
Watkins: Our next speaker is Nick Wood [ph].
43:32 N. Wood: Thank you all. My name is Nick Wood, and I come to you today
from Durham County on behalf of an organization I work for that
I'll get into in a second. Unlike all of those who have come before
me and presumably most who will come after, I do not live in this
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community. I don't live next to these sites that are threatened with
an unbelievable amount of toxic poison, not of our own creating. I
can't even imagine the fear and the trepidation and the anger and
the hurt in everything that's going into these communities.
44:07 But we're not here today because of anything that these
communities, or any of the others impacted by Duke Energy's
business practices over many, many years. We're here today
because of Duke Energy. We're today because of in the name of
profits, and greased with a few political dollars, they've been able
to run business as usual for years and years and years.
44:30 When I was in grade school, back in the `80s, some
documents came out showing that they that this was leaking. I'm
certain that this happened long before. But I am proud to be here
on behalf of my organization, NC WARN. We've been fighting
for more than 27 years alongside partnering with communities
like this who are bearing the brunt of environmental justice—
injustice, not of their own making.
44:57 Instead of us sitting here and talking to you, and fearing
and pleading and asking to find a better way, Duke Energy should
be here talking to all of us, the government included, and saying,
"We created this problem. We're going to take responsibility.
We're going to pay for it, none of these sites are going to be left
behind, and the last thing in the world we're going to start with is
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to do the crudest thing possible, which is dig it up and train it
hundreds of miles across the same communities that have been
victimized by this in the first place."
45:29 This is not mine reclamation. This is a landfill, plain and
simple. And this community has suffered enough. On my way
down, I passed Moncure Plywood; thanks, Koch Brother. A
chicken plant across there; the coal ash right here that's not even
being talked about. Duke needs to pay, they need to maintain
liability. Green Meadows, really? Really? They can do better.
We have one opportunity to do something, a trigger that happened
in the spill and we know now. Now we have no excuse, and so
I'm going to end with a poem.
46:02 Concentrated poison teeming for generations, building,
pooling, seeping, contaminate life. Built away from powers crying
eyes or privilege voices to protest, the dam breaks, causing cancer
spewing death, but also shining light on an open secret. Clearing
murky film to expose gleaming corruption, the mountain of coal
crumbles. A rainbow —this rainbow, and your rainbow if you'll be
a part of it, rises to stem the toxic tide. Let's stop this here and
let's do it right. Now is our opportunity. Thank you.
[APPLAUSE]
Watkins: Our next speaker, Irene Smith [ph].
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47:01 Smith: Good evening. My name is Irene Smith and I reside at 519 Walnut
Dr. in Sanford. If the residents of Lee County were asked whether
they wanted coal ash stored in their county, the answer would be
no. They will not have the opportunity, however, because the coal
ash legislation recently passed in the North Carolina state
legislature denies them that right, and effectively prevents the local
governments from defending their constituencies.
47:44 There is an immense amount of Duke Energy whitewash
being splashed around these days. But the Physicians for Social
Responsibility and other respected medical organizations conclude
that coal ash is dangerously toxic, and poses a threat to human
health. It is particularly dangerous when it is stored near wetlands
and water sources where the toxins can leach into the ground and
drinking water.
48:17 The site where Duke Energy plans to store the coal ash is,
for all intents and purposes, wetlands. The many creeks and
streams that flow through the site empty into the Deep River. Why
is Duke dumping in Lee County and running? Because they can.
The North Carolina Department of Environmental and Natural
Resources should be our last line of defense, but it looks to us like
DENR is already in Duke's deep and powerful pocket.
48:51 If DENR is really evaluating the long term impacts on
streams and wetlands, you will deny any permits that allow Duke
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to store coal ash at its proposed Lee County site. After the
polyurethane linings are breeched by cracks and breaks, and the
polluted ground water and streams empty into the Deep River, it
will be too late. Duke should be told to store its coal ash on its
own sites, until such a time as they can prove that they really know
what they're doing.
[APPLAUSE]
Watkins: Our next speaker: Lorna Chafe. [INDISCERNIBLE]
49:52 Chafe: Chafe. I'm Lorna Chafe, here with the Triangle Raging Grannies.
We oppose the transfer of coal ash to the Colon mine pit because
the arsenic, mercury, lead and radioactive materials will eventually
leach out into our ground and surface water, causing birth defects,
illness, and early death. There is a better way. We ask Duke
Energy to research making the coal ash into saltstone, a hard,
stable block that will not blow into the air we breathe, nor pollute
our water.
[APPLAUSE]
50:41: F (group): [SINGING] [INDISCERNIBLE] our water turned gray,
[INDISCERNIBLE] so we're raging [ph] today. They'll dump
into [INDISCERNIBLE] but common sense tells us that this is
insane. If the water is safe [ph], then here's what we should do,
invite these bosses to have a glass full or two. [APPLAUSE]
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51:25 [SINGING] [INDISCERNIBLE] protecting their profit line
while we all get screwed. [APPLAUSE]
[SINGING] [INDISCERNIBLE] we know that they ain't
true [ph], we demand they come clean for once and let the waters
run blue.
[APPLAUSE]
Watkins: Thank you, ladies. Our next speaker is Teresa Vick [ph].
52:21 F: You want money, because I can share it.
Vick: Yeah, I need some money.
F: Money, money.
Vick: I'm Teresa Vick and I'm with Blue Ridge Environmental Defense
League, but my comments tonight are going to be in reference to
what the North Carolina General Assembly and Duke Energy
wants to do to local government.
[APPLAUSE]
F: [INDISCERNIBLE]
F: I second that.
M: [INDISCERNIBLE]
[APPLAUSE]
F: Pay off the Governor, pay off Duke Energy.
55:30 Vick: Thank you for the opportunity so much.
[APPLAUSE]
Watkins: Kate Dunnagan.
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55:48 Dunnagan: Good evening. My name is Kate Dunnagan. I work for the Blue
Ridge Environmental Defense League. My question, to follow up
from my colleague Teresa's comments or lack thereof, is, why
should we trust Duke Energy now? Why give them a free pass?
Why would we give them a free pass to transport and dump coal
ash into these sites? The rush to transfer with the lack of due
process is another symptom of the disease that is Duke Energy.
56:27 For six decades, Duke Energy has allowed millions of tons
of coal ash to accumulate at power plants across the state and has
evaded state regulators and legal action. Duke's proposal to build
these new landfills for coal ash in Lee and Chatham is a quick and
dirty solution that would create a new source of contamination for
the people living in these communities, and set a precedent for the
rest of the state for clay mines to become coal ash receptacles, or
landfills.
56:53 People must be told the truth. All landfills leak. It's not a
question of if, but when. The manufacturers know this and that's
why landfill liner warrantees are as short as five years. Duke
Energy has been given a free pass by the North Carolina legislators
to build new coal ash landfills in rural communities, poor
communities, and communities of color, where the ash can pollute
the air, blow into people's homes, porches and windows, and seep
into groundwater and drinking wells.
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57:22 This kind of environmental racism was well documented
after the 2008 coal ash spill in Kingston, Tennessee. By 2010,
millions of tons of coal ash had been transferred from 93% white
Kingston, Tennessee to a landfill in 88% black Uniontown,
Alabama. Since then, Uniontown has suffered severe health
consequences from the contamination and is now the subject of a
federal civil rights lawsuit.
57:48 North Carolina is now in the national spotlight on this
issue. We can repeat the mistakes of the past, or we can lead the
way by setting an example of a just, sustainable and long -term
solution that will not put more lives at risk. The Blue Ridge
Environmental Defense League has proposed a solution that gets
ash out of our rivers, that does not victimize another community;
it's call saltstone. This technology was developed by the US
Department of Energy and could be used at power plant sites to
safely isolate the coal ash from groundwater and air contamination.
58:18 It would permanently and safely store coal ash on Duke's
property, keeping liability with the company, where it belongs.
[APPLAUSE]
There are alternatives. Allowing coal ash dumps to be built
anywhere in North Carolina is morally indefensible, especially
where they will have a disproportionate impact on people of color
and low- income communities. The people of Lee and Chatham
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counties deserve better. These communities have no intention of
backing down and have statewide support. Let North Carolina set
an example of responsibility to future generations and be a leader
in sustainability. Thank you.
[APPLAUSE]
Watkins: Our next speaker: Ashley Bruce [ph].
59:16 Bruce: Good evening. I'm Ashley Denise Bruce. I'm from Sustainable
Sandhills. We are a nonprofit that serves seven counties in the
sandhills.
Watkins: Could you repeat that for the record?
Bruce: Oh, I'm sorry. I'm Denise Bruce, and I am from Sustainable
Sandhills. We are an environmental nonprofit that serves seven
counties in the sandhills, including Lee County. Now, we at
Sustainable Sandhills demand that every measure be taken to
protect water quality, including a baseline environmental
assessment, and also under the state general permit, DENR may
require additional permittingI mean, additional monitoring at the
site. We advise that a third party be hired to do this monitoring, to
be vetted by the residents of Lee and Chatham counties.
[APPLAUSE]
01:11 At this juncture, in addition to the saltstone, we also believe that
above ground storage is the best solution to be kept at Duke's sites.
[APPLAUSE]
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Watkins: Laura Young [ph].
01:44 L. Young: My name is Laura Young. I'm a resident of Lee County. I drink
the water, I breathe the air. Duke Energy is a huge monopoly
making enormous profits. The coal ash was produced making
those profits, and those profits should be used to pay the cost
involved in the waste product. The recommendation was to treat
the waste on site where it is currently stored. Instead, Duke wants
to transfer the waste to a company without the volume of assets of
Duke Energy.
01:01:12 This company could go bankrupt and leave the citizens of
Lee and Chatham with a mess, and the citizens of North Carolina
with the bill. The proposed bond is completely inadequate to cover
potential problems. Duke Energy also appears to have great
political influence. Lee County has a zoning ordinance but Duke
has got itself exempted from following the rules every other person
and business in Lee County must follow.
01:01:39 Local control has been taken away, and our elected officials
are being bullied. In 1976, Congress passed the Resource
Conservation Recovery Act, but coal ash was exempted. Coal ash
should be analyzed using the procedure other industries must use
to determine its toxicity and then follow the rules other industries
must follow in disposing of it. Is coal ash structural fill or
hazardous waste? We have a right to know. We should note that
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hazardous landfills are not permitted in North Carolina, but due to
Duke Energy's political influence, the citizens of Lee and Chatham
counties are being forced to accept one, and that ain't right.
[APPLAUSE]
Watkins: Our next speaker: Maryellen [INDISCERNIBLE]
01 :02:48 F: Good evening. I'm Maryellen. I am a resident of Lee County.
My parents are residents of Lee County. My kids are; I have a
business here. Needless to say, I'm heavily invested in this county.
I'm here tonight to express my disgust with how this has been
handled. You —Duke is in the permit stages and only now has
there been a forum created where the public can give their input.
01 :03:18 It's clear there is something insidious going on here from
Duke and our elected officials. Duke's looking for the easiest
solution, the least resistance, regardless of the danger it holds to
the health and wellness of the public. And when I say public, let's
put faces on that. The public are my parents; the public are you,
my children, my coworkers. There's a face on that public. And I
think it's time for a bit of a generational movement against this
force that we're seeing.
01 :04:05 We're seeing it right here locally, and it does happen at the
state level, and it does happen at the national level, but we have the
power to elect our local officials, our state officials, and our
national officials. These representatives, who truly are public
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servants, and they're there to serve us. Specifically we need
creative, innovative, progressive thinkers who can take this waste
and recycle it, who can create new industries from it, and who can
expand looking into future energy industries.
01 :04:51 Duke doesn't own the water. Duke doesn't own the air.
That's all of ours. They do have an obligation to do what's right,
but if past experience is a predictor of what will happen in the
future, we know they're not going to do what is right, so we need
you to do what is right, to look at all of us and be able to say, with
good will, I really believe in this and I'm going to do it, because
you're an interest to me, these individual faces. Thank you.
[APPLAUSE]
Watkins: Ben Edwin [ph]
01 :05:52 Edwin: I'd like to say good evening to you, everyone here tonight. Back
in January, I addressed before the commissioners a question, and I
asked that they give thought to that question, and matter of fact, I
stay on Sheriff Watson Road near the Harnett County line. That
question that I asked the commissioners that night was a
neutralizer, and the reason why I said a neutralizer because instead
of moving this stuff from where it is, what all of the technology
that America has, and all the money that America has, it should be
some kind of way a neutralizer can be developed that can treat this
stuff in place, and possibly make it useful for something, other
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than to transport it from one location to another location. And
instead of having one dump, you've got two dumps.
01 :06:41 You know, I ask myself, why won't they do it? Because
it's cheaper to move it, and it's cheaper to dump it in a small
county such as ours. But you know the thing that bothers me, we
sit around and we can't afford to let this stuff happen to us. We
can't afford that, and the reason why we can't afford that because
the majority of us are seniors. I'm over 60 years old, but see, the
thing is that generations to come is going to have to deal with this
problem, because it's not a problem that's going to go away. It
will bother our livestock, our wells, our crops, our gardens, our
rivers.
01 :07:22 You know, Duke is at fault. I spent almost 30 years in the
Army; one thing I believed in 30 years in the Army as an officer is
that people must be held accountable. [APPLAUSE]
And you know, the money. We have sold out, and you
know what? That money is going to be gone before long but that
problem is still going to be here for generations to come. And you
know, that problem going to hinder Sanford; it's going to hinder
businesses and industries from coming in, because they will
consider this as a landfill, as a county dump.
01 :07:56 You know, it comes a time that those in positions of
authority need to speak up for what's right. You know, the
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Legislature, I realize and understand that the Legislature has
approved the law to make this thing profitable for Duke Energy.
However, we cannot sit back and just wait this thing out, hoping
that things will get better, because it's only going to get worse.
But if you don't think about nobody else, think about these babies
and the generations to come that's going to have to resolve this
situation.
[APPLAUSE]
Watkins: Our next speaker is William Cole [ph].
01 :08:48 Cole: Good evening. William Cole; I live in Lee County here in Sanford
six miles from the supposed dump site. Let's call it what it is: a
dump site. $25 million is what Duke was fined in Wilmington.
They're offering $12 million to buy up our politicians off It's
politics, gentleman, ladies. That's all it is.
01 :09:14 The problem with politics is you don't know who to trust.
Depending on who you listen to, deciding the information you
obtain. There's nothing wrong with it. The percentages are so low
that there can't be any damage. People are justy'all just don't
understand. You go to the other side: the percentages are so high,
you'll all be dead within a year. You don't know who the hell to
listen to anymore.
01 :09:40 And you cannot listen to your county residents because
we're not allowed to vote on it. Now, if you was to go to a car
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salesman and ask him, "How much for this car ?" And he tells you,
"$30,000." You say, "Well, I really can't afford $30,000," and he
says, "Well, I'll give it to you for $10." There's something wrong
with that damn car, all right.
01 :10:00 Now, what's going to happen in ten years down the road
when it leaks—it will leak, okay. Guaranteed. People before me
have stated, it will leak. What happens to that $12 million that's
not going to the citizens? Okay, we're the ones that's got to drink
the polluted water, or go buy bottled water, or sell our land at a
fraction of its value so we can go somewhere that the water's not
contaminated. What happens at this point in time? Who pays
then?
01 :10:28 Nobody, because Duke's done gone. Real quick, real
simple. I spent four years in the Army, and every time somebody
screwed up is considered a rocket scientist. I was never referred to
as a rocket scientist and I don't play on starting now. Find out
what the real truth is and why they want to bring it to us, and why
people are willing to pad their pockets and then get the hell out of
town before anything happens. Thank you.
[APPLAUSE]
Watkins: Arlo Vause [ph].
01 :11:20 Vause: I wore this cap for a purpose. I served this country and I served it
honorably, and I want to serve the peoples of this county. And
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tonight I stand here and I look back as we was in the Vietnam War,
how they were spraying the Agent Orange, which they say will not
be harmful. They were harmful. A lot of us today are suffering
from it. They are saying coal ash—nothing harmful about coal
ash. Bull.
01 :12:03 So I'm the father of six children, 23 grandchildren, 14
great - grandchildren, and it's not about me, it's about them.
[APPLAUSE]
So I thank you for allowing us to come before you today,
and you look like a man that's honest and believe in what's right.
So we asking you to deny those permits because the last hope is
you, and we want to keep hope alive.
[APPLAUSE]
Watkins: Cindy Simpson [ph].
01 :13:06 Simpson: Hi, my name is Cindy Simpson. I live within a mile of the dump
site. I could go on and on how and why I'm so opposed to this
coal ash dump, but everyone before me and whoever comes after
me can do a much better job than I did. One thing happened this
weekend that upset me. I worked 20 years down to the knuckles of
this place where I live. By myself, I raised four children. I told one
of my children this weekend, this is going to be your place one
day.
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01 :13:44 They said, "No, Mom, I don't want it." She didn't mean to
hurt my feelings, but it's so true. It's going to be polluted. I have
animals on there. There's wildlife all over the place. No one's
spoken about the wildlife. I have a pond and I have a creek that
runs the whole border of my property. It's only five and a half
acres, but now what do I do with it? I'm going to live out my life,
but then sell it? It's not going to be worth anything.
01:14:21 I'm just wanting to when did money become more
important than human lives? It's not much of a property to a lot of
people, but it's my castle. I built it for me to live and then my
children, but they don't even want it. Well, that's about all I got to
say. Everybody out here is going to lose property, value of their
property, and it's not the money that counts, mostly, but after it
kills us, then what are we going to do with it? It's not going to be
worth anything anyway. Thank y'all, and I hope you deny this
permit.
[APPLAUSE]
Watkins: Gail Gray [ph].
01 :15:33 Gray: Good evening. My name is Gail Gray, and I don't live in Sanford,
but I live in Broadway. I'm part of Lee County. My children and
my grandchildren live here. It was five months ago that we found
out that Duke Energy was looking forward to moving coal ash to
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our county, and I know I'm older but this has been a new civics
lesson for me.
01 :16:04 I didn't understand that the way things got done in this
country was a big mega - corporation went in and would have laws
changed in order to fulfill their long range plan. [APPLAUSE]
I didn't realize that the idea of the informational meeting
the first informational meeting I was aware of at the arts center was
more like a ninth grade science fair. It was held in the hallway by
the informative experts in their field, and you couldn't hear and
you couldn't ask questions, and you couldn't talk, and you
couldn't it was just nonsensical. It wasn't informational.
01 :17:01 I did learn that the liner is going to be this thick, which is
very comforting to me if I was riding on it. But instead, they're
going to put millions of tons of coal ash in there above the water
table. I'm not real comfortable about that at all, but I'm frustrated
because what's left to us is what are calling hearings, and I guess
what I'm really looking for is a listening. I want them to listen. I
want our government officials to listen. I want a way to find out
things are going to happen or have a say in it, to find out what the
alternatives. Five months does not give you the option to dig into
it.
01 :17:56 And when they found out they were running out of time on
proving whether or not coal ash was detrimental or poisonous, they
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said, "We don't need that." Well, go ahead and go without it. So I
don't know how else to do this except come here and repeat the
same things that we've been saying before. But this is just a small
representative of the community, and the problem is that most
people say, "Well, it's a done deal. What can you do ?" And I
listenI'm a realistic optimist, an idealist, and I still got to say, the
right thing has to happen. Thank you.
[APPLAUSE]
Watkins: [INDISCERNIBLE]
01 :19:21 F: Good evening, and thank you for the opportunity to share my
concerns. I also want to thank all the people who've already
spoken. It was very moving. I want to talk about numbers, not
scientifically because I am not a scientist. I want to talk about
numbers and quantities from a common sense point of view.
01 :19:37 Many recipes call for a pinch of salt; too much and the
result is less than palatable and perhaps totally ruined. Often, this
coal ash is referred to as no more harmful than many household
products, and those same household products probably should not
be used in our homes. They do not contain the heavy
concentration of toxins as does this coal ash.
01 :20:04 It is said too much of a good thing can sometimes be bad.
When you're talking toxic substances, too much and the result can
be fatal. Charah's structural fill plan does not fit its phase one
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space. It's as if they plan to pour a sand pail of ash into a thimble.
According to their plan, the amount to be dumped far exceeds the
receptacle so they are not maintaining the topography, as they said;
they are creating their own.
01 :20:38 Twelve million tons of coal ash is just too much in this
small space, and the result is potentially catastrophic aesthetically,
economically, and environmentally in this tiny county called Lee,
this tiny space called home. As for the safety and wellbeing of the
people of Lee County, the burden is too great to bear. Our local
waste water treatment facility may be given the responsibility of
handling a nearly constant flow of heavy metals laden leachate,
knowing our source of drinking water is barely downstream and
already stressed by other industrial waste such as poultry
processing.
01 :21:23 In addition, annual and seasonal changes in water level of
the Deep River makes the Cape Fear highly vulnerable to
contamination. And if fracking comes to fruition, millions of
additional gallons of water will be forever lost from the usable
water cycle. There is a finite amount of water on this earth to use,
and of this, there is not enough. We should not be forced to host
an industry that has repeatedly contaminated community water
sources, but perhaps most concerning to me are the possible side
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effects and direct effects on the health of the people in this small
county, especially the health risks to children.
01 :22:04 It's impossible to keep all the ash contained as it travels by
rail through our county. The trains will go right through the
middle of town, with small art shops, cafes, restaurants with
outdoor dining and a city park for outdoor concerts and other
family activities. But the most impacted facility may be this: a
well- established day care right on the tracks. Do we want our
children to be subjected to this? This proposal is just too much.
[APPLAUSE]
Watkins: I apologize in advance if I get your name wrong. I'll try.
[INDISCERNIBLE]
01 :23:12 Geronamy: I'm Martha Geronamy [ph] from Chatham County. Everyone here
must ask themselves what would you fear if a 12 million ton coal
ash landfill came to your neighborhood by force. One, you would
fear that you no longer live in a democracy. You lose the
confidence in your local government since it can't protect you.
You rightfully become fearful of the next taking or forcing that
will come from Big Brother state government, and Big Brother
Duke Energy.
01 :23:44 Two, you will fear the air you breathe. Think how we hate
having the pollen coat everything and sift under our windowsills.
Well, now dust is not just dust; it is toxic fly ash getting into your
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lawn, onto your vegetable plants, in your garden, into your
windows, walking in on your dog, in the dust in your chicken yard,
down into your lungs and your kid's and your grandkid's lungs.
You wonder what if the asthma, cancers, and coughs in your
community and family are brought on by this toxic tiny dust,
which is impossible to confine.
01 :24:20 You fear your well water is now contaminated from coal
ash landfill leachate, or coal ash spills, and ask, should you shell
out another several hundred again for a retesting. Or you fear first
for your family's health, but also for the health of the wetlands,
wildlife, pets, birds, deer, and all the natural environment.
01 :24:40 Five, you fear you will never be able to sell your house.
You fear the damage to your local animal and organic farming, for
the damage to local businesses from traffic, pollution, bad air
quality, bad reputation, etc. Can we trust Duke Energy to do
anything right or fairly? When I think of Duke Energy, I think of
bad planning, bad engineering, irresponsible, punitive.
01 :25:10 One, think about the cheap and irresponsible storage of coal
ash at 32 locations across the state. Think about the pathetic
cleanup of the Dan River. Think how Duke Energy reacts to any
environmental fine. Think legions of lawyers. Think how Duke
Energy reacts to any push for clean energy in North Carolina.
Think how punitive Duke Energy when it doesn't get its way.
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Think how little respect Duke Energy has shown to you as Lee and
Chatham boards of commissioners and citizens. Think of Duke
Energy lying about pumping off water from its Cape Fear coal ash
pits last year into a creek, and then falsely calling the sheriff on the
waterkeepers getting water samples on the creek, not Duke Energy
property.
01 :25:53 Think about how Duke Energy is shifting liability for its
coal ash to, by comparison, tiny companies with trivial assets, and
Duke Energy will no longer be responsible for its waste. Think
about how a cleanup of leaking riverside and unlined coal ash pits
has become a landfill in distant counties, which is now a
commercial enterprise with very confusing liability and lack the
substances and funding for remediation. After 30 years, DENR,
the state of North Carolina, Charah, Green Meadow and Duke,
they'll all be gone and we'll be stuck. Deny these permits, please.
[APPLAUSE]
Watkins: Keely Wood [ph].
01 :27:02 K. Wood: I am Madalyn Goode [ph] from Duke. I am Keely Wood; I live in
Lee County. We are fortunate in Lee County to have one of the
best GIS departments. I have attended many meetings held by GIS
and Don Kavorchik [ph] reviewing what is being described by
Duke Energy and Charah as a mine reclamation. This is not a mine
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reclamation; this is transferring of responsibility into a toxic
landfill dump.
01 :27:33 Lee County's GIS services have determined that almost
70% of the footprint of Colon landfill has never been excavated.
Say it again: 70% has never been mined. This is based on GIS
mapping since records of 1938. The permits state that this project
has to be reclaimed back to the original topography or useful
design. Based on the GIS 3D mapping, this is unattainable. You
wouldn't be able to build on this. You won't be able to farm on
this.
01 :28:08 Let us not forget the four -story coal ash wall in Asheville
that was Charah's expert plans that collapsed because of one inch
of rain. Of course, all the liability passed to the LLC company, but
it was Charah's plans. The Lee County board of commissioners
specifically asked Duke if the coal ash would be coming from
South Carolina. The permits stated initially Sutton and River
Bend. Now, on the March of 2015 revision, it states, North
Carolina and South Carolina.
01 :28:42 Why can't they answer the question clearly? The design
containment of storm water shows for 25 years; this is inadequate.
The financial assurances listed are inadequate, especially for
corrective action for leaks and spills. This is the most alarming; it
only has $2 million. We all know that cleanup actions would cost
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much more than this. People's lives and property values near toxic
ash landfills and along the transportation routes will be affected by
heavy truck and rail traffic. There could be ten years of trucks and
trains spewing toxic ash, contamination our homes, yards, farms,
roadways, streams.
01 :29:24 Duke Energy should be looking at saltstone encapsulations
on their own property and not transferring liability. Coal ash
should have minimal handling from airborne dispersion. The
experts that spoke before the coal ash commission on the benefits
of coal ash all remarked, "Don't move it." Air quality is a concern
for all of us. All landfills leak, and groundwater will be
contaminated. Two of the three liner companies that Charah uses
confirmed that liners have a five -year warranty.
[APPLAUSE]
Watkins: George Berkshard [ph].
M: [INDISCERNIBLE]
Watkins: [INDISCERNIBLE]
01 :30:37 Berkshard: Hello, I'm George Berkshard. I'm a resident of Sanford and Lee
County, and I'm here today because my cat died and I discovered
on the radio that I had to put him down today. And I heard on the
radio you're having this meeting. I haven't had a chance to
prepare, but because I worked for 15 years in the nuclear waste
business, low -level [ph] waste is one of the things I worked with. I
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know something about how accidents have happened when people
have tried to dispose of materials in so -called perfect places with
low permeability rock. Such as, for example, clay; clay's
supposed to be good, but see, the trouble with clay and with liners
is that if you have an impermeable layer, the water is going to go
somewhere.
01 :31:33 And of course, that somewhere is out the side. It's going to
be a perpetual leachate problem, and if you build this mound very
high, it's going to have water continually going into whatever
leachate collection system you have, and that's going to have to be
perpetually maintained. Now, there's something very strange here
in Sanford, very strange with our water supply, and with our water
treatment, and that is that the water treatment facility is upstream
from where our water supply is.
01 :32:14 So what's going to happen is you're going to have this
toxic leachate, and believe me, we know that arsenic, selenium,
tellurium, and a range of other possible elements —and I don't
know what's in there because each waste supply is different, each
waste stream is different. No one's told me so I don't know
exactly what's in there, but I know that these can be highly toxic.
01 :32:28 That will be a perpetual stream, and if they don't treat it
properly, Sanford is going to be drinking it. Now, this whole
process has been rotten from the start. You forced this on the
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people of this community without going through proper process,
proper evaluation. I worked for a regulatory agency; what I have
seen here is obscene. You do not rush and jump, basically, you
just gang -rape a community in this way. You do not do that. You
will be held responsible. The Republican Party will be held
responsible for dumping on the people of this state, for listening to
business and turning against the citizens. It will be known and
seen and told, and you will be sued. Thank you.
[APPLAUSE]
Watkins: Tamara Lewis [ph].
01 :33:58 Lewis: Tamara Lewis. I live in Sanford. I know you can't speak for Duke
Energy but I have not yet heard how the Department of
Environmental and Natural Resources can justify the suspension of
any rules protecting the environment. Why shouldn't this
company have to follow the rules? Please just enforce the policies
that this department was created to uphold.
[APPLAUSE]
Watkins: Coretta Johnson [ph].
01 :34:53 Johnson: My name is Coretta Johnson. I live at 381 Osgood Road. I was
born and raised in this community. We have enjoyed the ponds,
the swimming, the fishing, and now I'm afraid. I'm afraid that
nobody is looking out for the health of the people who live in this
community.
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01 :35:16 Duke has purchased the state government. It has muzzled
the local government, and now it's trying to poison the local
citizens. I heard many things about the power of Duke, that we
can't even talk or Duke might cut off our electricity. I heard
people say you don't know what they could do to us; you don't
know how much money they have. People are frightened. I have
nothing to lose but my life and the life of my children, and my
children's children.
01 :35:55 This land sits on the water table that feeds our water source.
Who has looked into that to assure that we are safe, are going to be
safe now and in the future? As quickly as this stuff went through,
there's nobody looking out for us. We're asking you to deny those
permits until sufficient study has been done. This land here is not
stable; it's water that moves under the ground here. I know; I live
here.
01 :36:28 And if that hasn't been studied, there's something missing
and we're all in danger. Deny the permit, please.
[APPLAUSE]
Watkins: Charles Taylor [ph].
01:36:59 Taylor: I'm Charles Taylor, 605 Tidewater Dr., Sanford, North Carolina.
Tonight, I preface my remarks by going back to my childhood in
eastern rural North Carolina, in Green County. In 1997, the Green
County board of commissioners adopted a new regional landfill,
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with the reason that it was needed to offset the cost of a new jail
and to upgrade a sewer facility. Then the threat of it, if it didn't
take place, was going to be a 20% tax increase.
01 :37:28 It divided my community; it divided my church. 17 years
later, my church is still divided. Forward wind to 2015 to Lee
County and Sanford, North Carolina. Do you see any parallels?
Tonight, I stand here not because I'm a member of a political
organization or a board, not because I'm a lifetime resident, but
because I have 6,029 total reasons to be here. I represent 6,029
people in Warrenton and Sanford.
01 :37:59 My ward is less than one mile from the site. Since
introducing the resolution at city council last week that would deny
treatment of water to Duke, Charah or any entity acting on their
behalf, the resolution was essentially gutted with a resolution to be
against coal ash. I'm sure everyone on city council are against
crime as well, but yet passing a resolution to be against it doesn't
do anything to reduce it.
01 :38:25 If you are against something, you fight to stop it. I have a
couple key major concerns tonight. After reviewing the chairman
county of commissioners meeting, I'm a bit shocked as to how few
answers were provided by Charah. In local environmental board,
inconsistencies on setbacks, height of coal ash to match
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topography based on 2001 maps was over 50 feet higher. Too
many questions; not enough answers.
01:38:55 Since March 24th, agreement with Lee County, this project
has been more and more rushed. Administration after
administration over the years have ignored this issue until an
unfortunate accident took place at the Dan River. Local officials
have spoken out against coal ash and generic meaningless
resolutions. Those words need to be actionable. I have drawn
personal attacks from these by trying to introduce a simple but
effective resolution.
01 :39:24 Local government is the last line of defense for the citizens.
If we don't stand up for our citizens, who will? If it was going to
be here to begin with, then why would Duke be obligated to give
$12 million to Lee County? Tonight, I urge DENR to deny these
permits, allow for further discussions and questions to be
answered. For those of you who think it's too late, I urge you
your local governments to stop counting money and start
representing the people. I will not be sidelined, no duct tape on my
mouth.
[APPLAUSE]
Watkins: [INDISCERNIBLE]
01:40:25 Mayfield: Hello, my name is Calvin W. Mayfield [ph] [INDISCERNIBLE].
I live in Deep River, let's see, 23 years I believe. I just found out
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about this coal ash. I don't know too much about it, but I heard
about it. But some lady told me here from Virginia [ph] that
they're messing the water up. You get ready to take a bath, it
smell bad. So what happen if they bring it over here, it'd be the
same way. I think we losing a lot better, don't you think so?
Because I think they done start hauling it. It's on this land already.
F: [INDISCERNIBLE]
01 :41:15 Mayfield: So you can pass over here on N. Moncure Road and you can smell
that stuff I think we losing the battle. I don't know what they
want us to do, but if you do, we going to have to just pack up and
leave, I reckon; the little children, all that stuff, they are missed.
Well, that's all I got to say.
[APPLAUSE]
Watkins: That's our final speaker that signed up. [INDISCERNIBLE] is
there anyone else in the room that didn't sign up that would like to
comment?
M: Sir, the development of —I've got something to say about it.
01 :42:00 F: He gave this to me and he wanted to use some of his time to read
this for him. Is that doable?
Watkins: Yes, ma'am.
F: He just handed me this flier and it says Duke Energy, Virginia,
agreed to $2.5 million coal ash settlement, and this is about the
Eden coal ash breach that happened in February. And the thing
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that I want to present is the last paragraph. Duke adamantly denied
any wrongdoing regarding its coal ash dumps for years, but in
December, the company conceded in regulatory filings that had it
identified about 200 leaks and seeps at its 32 coal ash dumps in
North Carolina, that together ooze out more than 3 million gallons
of contaminated waste water each day. Thank you.
Watkins: Would you like to speak?
M: Yes.
Watkins: When you step to the podium, will you please state your name and
[INDISCERNIBLE].
01 :43:10 Hayes: My name is Richard Hayes [ph], and I live in Sanford. I'm sorry
that this room is not packed tonight, and that thousands of people
are not here to witness and to speak to this critical issue in the life
of Lee County. And this may seem like a rhetorical exercise
tonight, going nowhere, but it is not impossible to dream.
01 :43:43 Callous indifference and bullying are what are amiss here.
This collusion between the General Assembly, starting at the North
Carolina Senate is unconstitutional, in my opinion, and should be
adjudicated in the federal courts on the grounds of health, safety
abuse, and should be brought before the federal courts as it can be
done. But we are unable or have been unable to see our way clear
to afford such a costly fight.
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01 :44:28 And then our county might rightly fear becoming the target
of retribution by the oligarchy that has us by the throat. DENR
should stand tall and deny these permits in the name of social
justice. Thank you.
[APPLAUSE]
Watkins: Anyone else who hasn't spoken [INDISCERNIBLE]. Go ahead.
01 :45:10 Bray: My name is Donna Bray [ph]. I live on Post Office Road. I was
born and raised
Watkins: What was your last name again?
Bray: Bray, B- R -A -Y.
Watkins: Thank you, ma'am.
01 :45:19 Bray: I was born and raised on Post Office Road. I didn't move but less
than a mile from where I was raised. My dad worked in the brick
yard for 47 years. He walked to work when there was snow on the
ground. He told me that the reason that we have so many clay
holes, which is what we call them —not mines—is because that
they would dig and dig until they hit water.
01 :45:46 Then they would have to move, and dig another pit,
because the water filled up so fast that they couldn't mine anymore
clay out of it. Now, you put a liner in this hole that's pushing up
with natural water, then where is that ash going to go. It ain't
going to stay in the pit that they say it's going to stay in. There has
been no study at all on why the brick yard moved from pit to pit,
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but if you look at the GIS, that land is full of pits or clay holes,
where they hit our water.
01 :46:22 There is fish in over 50% of those clay holes. I have
pictures. My dad fed his family from these clay holes. I fed my
family from those clay holes. Not only is it a danger to everybody
and their children and their grandchildren, you will see the wildlife
die. It will move out and die. It will not be able to live in this
toxic environment.
01 :46:53 My son, fighting in the military today, told me this
weekend that he is afraid to bring my granddaughter to my house
to visit because he's scared that she may be exposed to toxic
chemicals. I will have to move is this is allowed, because it will
blow all over my family and my farm. I raise chickens and I have
all kinds of animals that comes up. I raise a garden that puts in
50% of my winter crop. That's what I eat. I don't run to the
grocery store every time I need a tomato. I have them. I raise
them.
01 :47:35 If this is allowed to blow on my property, are you going to
guarantee to me—because Duke ain't —that I'm not going to die in
the next ten years? These permits need to be denied.
[APPLAUSE]
Watkins: [INDISCERNIBLE] state your name.
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01:48:02 Stanley: Sure. I'm Lynn Stanley [ph]. I'm actually not from here, I'm from
Durham, but I came here in complete solidarity with all the people
in this area, and I've just been horrified and heartbroken tonight
listening to all the people. And I wish you the best.
01 :48:30 I worked for many years in the Department of
Epidemiology at UNC, and I know about these kind of studies
where you take comparisons and I don't need to go into detail. My
point really is that I am absolutely horrified that I have heard over
and over, there's not going to be any baseline data taken. There's
no way to monitor it. There's going to be no way to look at what's
happening over time if there's nothing to start with.
01 :49:17 That's just crazy. You don't do any studies like that. I
can't believe that DENR would support something like that. And
secondly, that brings me to the issue, and I really appreciate your
being here and sitting through all of this, but I'm also pretty
horrified that this whole huge department representing our state
sent one person —one person—to take all of our testimony. And
you know what? How are you going to represent everything to all
of your colleagues? It's not possible.
01 :50:00 They hadn't heard anything and they're going to be
scoffing, so the whole process —this is just sort of like an example
of what I've heard the whole process. So that's all I have to say.
[APPLAUSE]
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Watkins: [INDISCERNIBLE] Go ahead.
01 :50:38 Calendine: My name is Jake Calendine [ph] and I live here in Sanford.
Watkins: Could you pronounce or spell
Calendine: Absolutely. My last name is spelled C- A- L- E- N- D- I -N -E.
Watkins: Thank you, sir.
Calendine: So I think you've heard a lot of good ideas tonight. You've also
heard a lot of emotion but you'veI think you've gotten a pretty
good cross section of what this community has been dealing with
in expressing the sense—we heard about this in November.
01 :51:05 It is interesting that even though the request for the map
that led to the purchase of the land that's going to be used for the
coal ash site, even though that was requested in August, officials
held onto this until after the election, and only in mid - November
let this out of the bag. And so now, what we're facing with the
when we say, okay, there's another technology that you might be
willing to use, we hear, oh, well, the legislature has put us on a
clock.
01 :51:32 Well, we've got other ideas about how to do this that may
be useful, and they say, "Oh, well, the legislature has put us on the
clock." An earlier speaker here said that the local government was
the last line of defense, but it's not, because the legislation that
enabled this took the local government out of the equation. In fact,
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you represent the organization that our local government would
have to sue, if they even sued.
01 :51:57 And so you stand in an interesting position; you can stop
the clock. You can say, "Listen, there are things that need to be
addressed. There are other technologies that need to be
considered. The permitting process is how we do that, and that's
why we should hold off until we have a chance to explore these
other ideas," and then we don't have to listen to other folks, "Well,
the Legislature put us on the clock." We instead can talk about
how DENR is standing up for the rights of people who live here,
and standing against forces that may be threatening to poison us.
Thank you.
[APPLAUSE]
Puricz: Hi, my name is Kate Puricz, P- U- R- I -C -Z. I'm 17, I go to
Southern Lee. My mom is an activist of EnvironmentaLEE, and
the last four or so years, I've been growing up at a dinner table
with my parents, and all they talk about is the environment.
Between —she's fighting fracking, and fighting this now, and I'm a
year away from going to college, and my dinner conversations are
about coal ash, and the wrongs that the government do.
01 :53:12 Now, if that is normal, I don't think I want to have a dinner
conversation about how much coal ash is being dumped on Lee
County. That's not the last dinner conversation I want to have at
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my house. I want to spend time with my mom instead of being in
rooms like this where she has to fight, all the time. I've grown up
speaking in this room, and it seems like every single time I come
here, there's something more upsetting, and I'm tired of it.
01 :53:38 And aren't you tired of hearing these complaints and still
not doing the right thing? Aren't you tired?
Moore: Hello, everyone. My name is Shawn Moore [ph]. I just want you
to know that—
Watkins: Could we get your last name again?
Moore: Shawn Moore, M- 0- 0-R -E.
Watkins: Thank you, sir.
01 :54:04 Moore: I wanted to let you know that I can walk out my back door and I
can take you to where they're going to dump this. I am scared to
death because I grow gardens, I have fruit, I hunt off my land.
What is it going to do to the environment for the animals, and not
only for the animals; if I want to dig a well under my property 20
years from now, will it be safe to drink that water that is coming
from that well? And my parents are going to give me that land
whenever they pass and whatnot. What's the property value going
to be worth? Can I sell the property?
01 :54:35 I mean, it's justI think this is ridiculous that y'all are
going to dump this in my backyard and there's nothing I can do
about it. How would you like it if I come to your backyard and
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polluted your back yard, and messed up everything that you, you
know, raised to live off of? I mean, I have a garden, I have
greenhouses and everything, and that's what, you know, right now
I have no job whatsoever, and that's what I rely on is the food that
comes out of that garden. What is it going to do to it, you know?
01 :55:05 And that's what worries me. It's that, and clean drinking
water. Thank you.
[APPLAUSE]
H. Young: My name is Harold Young [ph]. Can everyone hear me?
Watkins: Can you repeat your name?
H. Young: Yes, my name is Harold Young, 960 Womack Lake Cir. in
Sanford, North Carolina. Folks, our founding fathers warned us
about getting the government that we deserve. And I think we're
seeing that polluted process, no pun intended, before our eyes. I
hope everyone remembers and knows that the Republican governor
is a former Duke executive who left there and is now a millionaire
based on his activities there.
01 :55:59 If you don't know, let's get schooled up on these issues.
The politics —and this is a political and a governmental issue, and
the politics of this are such that you have a party in control of the
state legislature who, at the national level, profess to want to get
rid of the EPA, the Environmental Protection Agency. Folks,
everyone in this room is here to protect their own piece of the
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environment. But at the local level, the Republican party wants to
get rid of the EPA. Please think about this when you vote next
time.
01 :56:53 To the media present here: you are a vital fourth branch of
government, part of a system of checks and balances that should
protect us from abuse of government. This is a flawed process, the
way this thing is being ram- rodded through here in little tiny Lee
County, and the media needs to do, not just reporting of talking
points, but investigative journalism. Follow the money. Follow
the money and you'll find some interesting things, I'm quite sure.
01 :57:36 I don't have much else to say here, folks, but it's great to
see people getting together of all stripes, for a common cause.
This—we certainly need more studies. I am not a scientist. I don't
know all of the information needed to make a decision, but I do
believe in science, and let's have smart folks figure out the right
thing to do, and not let this big- monied interest buy the policies
that they want. Thank you.
[APPLAUSE]
Watkins: All right, that's everyone who's asked to speak. If you didn't
speak tonight, but you still want to provide comments, there's a
box up there for written comments. You can also submit
comments until 5:00 p.m. on May the 16th, 2015. Written
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comments can be submitted, again, to the email address or the
postal address on the handouts up front with the registration table.
01 :58:48 Based on the comments received here tonight about the
process, we will make recommendations to the director of the
Division of Water Resources, the director of the Division of
Energy, Mineral, and Land Resources, and the Division of Waste
Management regarding a final decision on whether to issue or
modify the direct permits as written. I'd like to thank everybody
for coming out tonight, for your attendance and your interest in this
public hearing process. The hearing is adjourned. Thank you.
[INAUDIBLE] [UNRELATED COMMENTS]
Watkins: Okay, folks. I've been told that there's folks that have already
spoken that want some additional time at the podium. We can
offer you some additional time. [INDISCERNIBLE] The
gentleman right here with The News & Observer, he'll ask to take
a picture of the name. [INDISCERNIBLE]
[END RECORDING]
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