Wake Stone transcript Vol 2

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GENERAL COURT REPORTING SERVICES
RALEIGH • DURHAM • OXFORD
NORTH CAROLINA
STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA.
COUNTY OF WAKE.
BEFORE THE NORTH CAROLINA MINING COMYtISSION.
DEPARTHWT OF NATURAL RESOURCES AND CORgI U1:'4ITY DEVELOPMENT.
IN THE MATTER OF:
WAKE STONE CORPORATION )
PERMIT DENIAL APPEAL# )
CARY QUARRY SITE, )
WAKE COUNTY, NORTH CAROLINA.)
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T R A N S C R I P T
O F T H E
P R O C E E D I N G S
V O L U M E I I I
Before: The North Carolina Mining Commission;
Dr. Henry B. Smith, Chairman;
1r. Stanley R. Riggs, Member.:
Mr. Earl Van Horn,.Member;
Mr. P. Greer Johnson, Member;
Dr, W. W. Woodhouse, Member;
Mr. T. W. Tysinger, Member;
Mr. Harry L. Salisbury, Jr., Member,
A P P E A R A N C E S
the Commissions Ms. Becky French, Department Hearing
officer, appearing as counsel to Commission.
`or the Department Daniel C. Oakley, Esquire,
f Natural Resour- Assistant Attorney General,
es and Community N. C. Department of Justice,
avelopments P. O. Box 629,
Raleigh, North Carolina 27602.
David Heeter, Esquire,
Counsel, Office of Legal Affairs,
Department of Natural Resources and
Community Development,
Raleigh, North Carolina 27611.
F the Petitioner, James M. Kimzey, Esquire,
We Stone Corpora-.Kimzey, smith and McMillan,
Attorneys at Law,
P. O. Box 150,
Raleigh, North Carolina 27602.
Ataleigh, forth Carolina.
Thsday, November 6, 1980.
P- (IX 30112 ` * r 201 N. ROXBORO ST. 203 MAIN ST.
RALEIV.. C. 27622 DURHAM, N. C. 27701 OXFORD, N. C. 27666
(8111-3936 [phone] [phone]

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T A B L E O F C O N T E N T S
E X A M I N A T 2 0 N S
Wtness
Examination
By Whom
Pam_
John
A. Edwards
Direct
Kimzey
282
John
A. Edwards
Cross
Oakley
298
John
A. Edwards
Redirect
Kimzey
309
John
A. Edwards
Commission
Members
311
John
Bratton
Direct
Kimzey
321
John
Bratton
Cross
Oakley
351
John
Bratton
Redirect
Kimzey
364
John
Bratton
Commission
Members
367
John
Bratton
Further Cross
Oakley
379
John
Bratton
Re -Redirect
Kimzey
381
James D. Simons
Direct
Oakley
388
Colloquy concerning Wake Stone Exhibits 381--387

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V-
TA►BLE
OF CONTENTS
I X H I B I T S
Exhibit
Description
Page No*
Wake Stone
14
Sedimentation Plan Map
285
Wake Stone
15
Construction Schedule (Booklet)
310
Wake Stone
16
Aerial Photograph (Abandoned
337
Quarry Site)
Wake Stone
17
Aerial Photograph (Abandoned
337
Quarry Site)
Department
5
Letter to John Bratton from
394
James D. Simons, dated 4-10-80

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Direct
F D R T K E R
PROCEED IN G S
-282-- 1
(thereupon, the Mining Commission was reconvened
after a dinner recess at 6s45 p.m. and the
hearing in the Matter of take Stone Corporation's
permit denial appeal was continued.)
CHAIRMAN SMITH: We call the hearing
continuation to ordero
Do you have additional. witnesses, Mr.
Kimsey?
. Mai.. KIMZEY: Yes, sir, I do have additional
witnesses and we will get them on and off quickly,
we hope.
Mr. Edwards.
Whereupon,
MR, JOHN A. EDWARDS,
Having been first duly sworn,
was examined and testified as
follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR, KIMZEY:
Q, that is your name, please, sir?

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Edwards Direct 283-
A. John A. Edwards, Sr.
And Mr, Edwards, what is your occupation and your
position in that occupation?
A. I'm a professional engineer in private practice,
and I'm president of a consulting firm, John
Edwards, and Company.
What is your educational background as a consultinil
engineer?
A. Graduate of North Catolina State University,
What area of engineering are you primarily con-
cerned with?
8. Civil engineering, sanitary engineering.
OL And now, sir, what's your experience in that
field?
L Ah, well, in civil engineering we have practiced
civil engineering as it relates to public works, an
also that would include sanitary engineering,
throughout -- well, I've been in the business
for twenty-four years.
Twenty-four years? For that duration?
A. Yes,
Q. And during that period of time, what type of
projects have you worked on?
Just give us some examples.

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Direct -284-
Well, we worked on waste water treatment plants,
water treatment plants, streets and drainage.
As particularly related to sedimentation control
plans, would you explain briefly what you have dozy
in that area?
Well, we have been of course have worked under
the State and City of Raleigh sedimentation
ordinances -- well, in that sense, with Raleigh
since 1973.
And in my experience with the ordinance it
as it relates to Raleigh, I was Chairman of a
Committee that helped wri -- rewrite the City of
Raleigh sedimentation laws.
Is that in your advocation as a city icouncilman?
Yes, it is.
But you have been involved in various projects
concerning sedimentation though, throughout your -
since that time?
Yes.
Did you -- are you -- have you been employed as
a consultant by make Stone Corporation to help
develop a plan to control the sedimentation at
the proposed quarry site, what is known as the Cary
site?
f

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Edwards
J.
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Direct
-285-- 1
Yes, I have.
And can you please explain what that proposed plan
is to the Commission at this time, using your
maps., or whatever aids you have with you?
Would you like me to put a snap on this --
(Interposing) Yes, ' sir, I think that would help,
-- or just go over the plan?
(Witness posts map on writing board.)
MR. KIMZEYa Before proceeding with the
explanation, let's identify that.
That would be Wake Stone exhibit --
REPORTER: Fourteen.
(WAKE STONE' S EXHIBIT 14,
MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
(Mr. Kimzey) would you just explain what Wake
Stone Exhibit 14 is, please, sir?
This map shows --- it shows basically the proposed
location for the quarry site, some sedimentation
ponds t to be donstructed on these larger two Mom
these are sedimentation ponds and these are sedi-
mentation ponds, sedimentation poinds and this
heavy line as you see it here is what we refer to
as diversion ditches to control and direct the
run-off and collect sediment as the construction

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Edwards Direct -286-
proceeds with the project,
Mr. Edwards, would you explain how that plan will
control sedimentation, starting with, first,
clearing the overburden and the first clearing
operations to be carried out,
How would that be constructed and how will
it control sedimentation?
L These two proposed lakes -- two lakes that are
shown here, and I'm sure you're all familiar with
that by this time -- the draw that runs through
here,.and another draw that runs back down in this
location, these two lasses are proposed to be con-
structed first, according -- based on this plan
and operation.
After these lakes are constructed, and they
will be constructed at initial stages to collect
sediment as theother work progresses,
The haul roads and the roads going into
the project will be built with diversion ditches
and brush barriers around the upper side of all
the roads that come into the area.
The -- the plan itself, after these ponds
and these ponds are built, . the plant itself as
located here, would deposit its wash waste materia

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Lrds Direct -287-
in these three sedime&.ponds and in turn go into
this pond, and this is a recycle pond and just
carries the water back from the pond, pump back
to the plant, sediment is dropped out and these
three ponds, and the clear water goes back to here
(demonstrating sequence on map.)
These ponds and these ponds are based ----
shown on this map based on topographic conditions,
collect sediment from the diversion ditches.
And they also as they overflow the trapped
sediment, the water would overflow and come on
back down into these permanent ponds.
(demonstrating on map.)
So, in effect, ghat we're doing is we're
catching the sediment in this larger pond and
in these smaller ponds and as I explained to you,
from the plant the wash would go into these
ponds and then into this larger lake and be
pumped back out.
So, this really is a self-contained area
right through here.
Now, for that self-contained area, that's the
waste water and the plant water for that, is
that correct?

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Edwards
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Direct
-288- I
That's correct.
And I believe there has been a permit issued for
that's said -- as shown in stipulations for that
particular design, is that correct?
I have no knowledge of that.
We'll have Mr. nratton testify to that; then.
okay.
Now, are you familiar with the State of North
Carolina Department of Natural and Economic
Resources guidelines or criteria for designing
sedimentation plants for a mining area?
Yes, we incorporated some of those which are in
that --
(Interposing) Are you familiar with this pamphlet
which has been identified as Wake Stone's exhibit
8 in a -- in the pretrial which we could just refs
to as that pretrial exhibit?
Yes, unh-hunk.
Do the -- does the sedimentation plan which you
have described meet all the criteria set forth
in there for design of sedimentation?
I believe it would meet those requirements,
Yes.
Were the -- there was a question earlier, and I'm

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S Direct -289-
sorry you're blocking the area, so I'll get up
-and point to the area.
There was a question from one of the Com-
missioners concerning the possibility of the
drainage down into this area of Crabtree Creek.
I understand that this would control all
along in here, here and here, but would you
address yourself to how the pit area would be
prevented from draining into Crabtree Creels at
that area?
well,. t its is one of the things as construction
takes place and you try to control your sedimen-
tation, that you -- that you have to be aware
of -- there's always some point in a plant that yv
have to mask, additions to in the field,
And this possibly could be one of them,
depending on how they came into this area and
worked.
(indicating area on Wisp.
But if it was such that this water wanted
had a tendency to go this way and this ditch was
such that it could not flow by gravity and get
back into this lake, then you'd have to create
another sediment pond which could be a temporary

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Edwards Direct -290-
sediment pond which could be kept clean.
Ultimately as this pit goes deeper, then
the excavation causes a berm around this area
so no water would flow toward the creek.
Q► Now, with the two big sediment lakes, would you
point those out again?
(Witness points to two largest lakes on plan
map.)
Do they -- are they so located on the -- with the
topography of the site so that they would catch al
of the sediment run-off from the site -- this
plant site itself?
L Yes, they are.
I'm talking about the plant site generally
meaning plant and stockpile and the --
L (Interposing) Well, this whole area -M
¢ -- pit itself.
A. that we have shown here, and these heavily
taped areas which are the diversion areas and the
bush -- brush barriers, would lead all the
water to these two ponds.
Q. Now, Mr. Edwards the application for this
mining permit which has been introduced as an
exhibit, or has been accepted as an exhibit by

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Edwards
Direct
-291-
stipulation, and the permit for air pollution
or dust control which has been accepted as
an
exhibit by stipulation, mentioned certain
water
devices used to control dust, one of them
being
watering the road.
Mould you explain what effect that
.may
have on proper sedimentation in the area,
for
off the --
A.
(Interposing) You mean off site?
-- site? Yes.
A.
Well,- using -- if using water to dust the
roads
down and keep the dust down m-
Yes.,
A.
--- then it's my belief you're not going to
get
enough water from it --- from that operation
to
run off the site.
I don't think you're going to have
a probl
with that.
What effect does the periodic wetting of the road
to control the dust, but not using large quanti-
ties, have on the possible erosion of those
roads?
A. Well, if you wet the roads down and keep '.ems►
wet down, they you're going to keep your soil

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Edwards Direct -292--
conditions compacted, as opposed to allowing
traffic to run over 'ern and create dust.
And if you keep them compacted, you're
going to have less run-off.
¢ Then if you get a large rain --
�. (Interposing) or, sediment.
Q. -- and it's compacted, you'll have lees run --off?
L You'll have less sediment from that area.
9 I see.
Now, do you have an opinion satisfactory
to yourself as a professional civil engineer,
familiar with the sediment control plant and
with this particular location as to whether or not
there will be any sedimentation off site into
Crabtree Creek or into Umstead Park from this
proposed operation using the plan as you've
designed it there?
�. I believe using this plan and then any additional
controls that may become evident, as are needed
as construction progresses, will take care of
and contain. sediment on the site.
Q, Would that include --- would your opinion include
the period of idtial construction as well as a
period of continued mining operations?

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Edwards
A.
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Direct
-293-
Yes, it does.
Mr. Edwards, have you had experience with design-
ing and analyzing run-off and sedimentation from
areas other than for mines such as residential
and other industrial or commercial uses?
A great deal from commerical and residential as
applies to the ordinances we work under.
Do you have an opinion satisfactory to yourself
as to whether or not if this property were not
developed as a quarry site, pursuant to the plan
that you have developed, but were used for resi-
dential development, whether or not there would
be more or less run-off or sedimentation or -- in
Crabtree Creek, or the possibility of encroach --
went on'the park?
Well, .._
MR. OAKLEY: Objection.
MS. FRENCH: Ground, Mr, Oakley,
MR. OAKLEY: I don't think the question.
is relevant to what other types of uses might be
w-- might go in there.
It is not an issue.
MS. FRENCH: Sustained.
MR. KIMZEY: Well, Madam Examiner, I

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Edwards Direct -294-
again say that the relevant question is whether
or not there is a significant impact.
You cannot measure significance of an
impactinless it's measured against something.
And an impact in a vacuum is an impact,
but P-:� significance, if it's less than any
alternative, and I think -- I'd ask you to recon-
sider that, and I would like to get it in the
record if you do not.
MS. FRENCH: Would you like to note your
objection for the record?
MR. KIMZEY: No, I'd like to get it into
evidence: for the record. I would like to offer
the evidence for the record purposes only, if you i
not overrule the objection.
MS'. FRENCH: We are going to sustain the
objection.
You may put that answer in the record if
you want to.
OL (Mr. Kimzey) Yes. Would you answer that for the
record purposes then?
(The following answer was rejected by the hearing
Commission but is allowed to be placed in the
record as a matter of record.)

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Edwards Direct -295-
Any -- any area that is in the control of one
operation, the sediment can be controlled better
than if it's under a number of controls,
whether it's residential, commercial or what have
you, if it's controlled by one operation, then
the sediment can be controlled more effectively
than it can if you get a number of different people
in there with a number of different type opera-
tions.
All right, sir.
(DISCUSSION OFF RECORD -- Petitioner's
counsel table.)
(Mr. himzey) Mr. Edwards, let's assume there was
residential developments there under the control
of one residential developer, but that it was
residential development spread out over the site.
Would you have an opinion as to the possi-
bility of the comparison of sedimentation, encroac.
on the park and Crabtree Creek as compared to this
plan?
Yes, I would.
MR. OAKLEYt objection. same objection.
CHAIRMAN SMITH: Are you going to pursue
this line of questioning, Mr. Oakley?

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Direct --296-
MS. FRENCH: (to Chairman Smith) That's
Mr. K im z ey .
MR. KIMZEY: Are you speaking to me, sir?
CHAIRMANi SMITH: Yes, sir.
MR. KIMZEY: I'm Mr. Kimzey,
CHAIRMAN] SMITH: I'm sorry.
MR. KIMZEY: I plan to --
CHAIRMAN SMITH: I'm getting the issues
confused.
MR. KIMZEY: I don't have any plans to pur-
sue it beyond this answer, but I do want this
answer to be given for the record as evidence,
and if not as evidence, for the record.
CHAIRMAN SMITH: I think it's completely
irrelevant, Mr. Kimzey.
MR. KIMZEY: And your ruling on the objec-
tion is--?
CHAIRMAN SMITH: Yes, yes.
MR. KIMZEY: I'd like to get it into the
record then, for record purposes.
MS. FRENCH: We will sustain Mr. Oakley's
objection.
Do you want to enter it into the record
for record purposes?

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Direct -297-
MR. KIMZEY: Yes, I do.
CHAIRMAN SMITH: You're welcome to enter
it by written record, but please don't sustain
this line of questions any further.
MR. KIMZEY: Does that mean that you're
refusing to let me get it into the record at this
time?
CHAIRMAN SMITH: Yes.
MR. KIMZEY: And --
MS. FRENCH: Will you come up here, please?
(Counsel for Petitioner and for the
Department approach the Bench.)
(DISCUSSION OFF RECORD - at the Bench.)
MS. FRENCH: You may put it into the record
at this time, and we will let the record show that
Mr. Oakley made an objec-don and it was sustained.
(Mr. Kimzey) Would you put it in for record pur-
poses, please sir?
That's your answer to the last question
before this colloquy?
THE WITNESS: Would you repreat it, please,
for me?
Qt (Mr. Kimzey) Compare your opinion on the
sedimentation of a residential development, even

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Edwards Direct -298-
if developed under one owner prior to sale to
those individuals, with theproposed plan site that
you have there.
L It's --- it's been observed by me that even with
the large residential developments, that involve
cutting a number of streets, utilities, clearing
sites for buildings, that you do not have the con-
trols, even though it's under one developer
in a residential area as that you would have
under a condition such as this.
There's no question in my mind.
MR. KIHZEY: Thank you. No further ques-
tions.
MR. OAKLEY: You may have . a seat for
cross-examination.
(witness resumes the witness stand.)
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. OAKLEY:
Q. Mr. Edwards, --
L Yes.
Q: -- would ,you approach the exhibit and point out to
me the area that would be initially cleared by
this operation?
Q► In sequence?

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Edwards Direct -299-
Yes, sir.
(Witness returns to exhibit posted on
writing board.)
A. Well.. --
MR. KIMZEY: (Interposing) Air. Edwards,
please don't shield the exhibit from the Commissi
THE WITNESS: Well, I've got to shield it
from somebody.
(laughter)
MR. KIMZEY: Well, let me help you by using
this point so you can get a little further away
from it.
(Mr. Kimzey hands pointer to witness.)
THE WITNESS: A11 right.
�. Of course, your first objective is to build this
lake.
Now, obviously to get to the lake you've go
to construct a roadway to get your equipment in.
And in constructing your roadway into this
area, for the construction of this dam-. Then
as you clear the area, you would place brush
barriers on the uphill side of your road, so that
as water ran down the hill it would hit the
brush barriers and be slowed down.

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Edwards Direct -300-
¢ Do you have an opinion on the effectiveness of
that during the road construction of preventing
sediment?
a From Crabtree Creek?
¢ Yes.
A. Yes, the amount of land disturbed, in order to
build a roadway and taking precautions in con-
trolling the velocity as it approaches the road-
way, and in constructing this lake, you have got
ample buffer between your disturbed area and
your creek.
So that -- what sediment does not get
into this lake before it's constructed, will
settle out in the buffer area between the dis-
turbed area and the creek.
¢ What -- you can continue if you would.
Ah --
I think you were up to the construction of the
ponds.
A. Okay, and then after the -- of course, this pond
then would be constructed to -- as a sediment pit.
Ah --
4 (Interposing) What is -- what does that involve?
L Well, you have a dam, and you have a riser, you

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Edwards Direct -301-
may have some water backed up into the area so that
your -- your run-off would approach zero velocity
and drop your sediment out.
And then as the water increased in height
it would flow through the riser.
The actual construction of the pond itself --what
types of equipment would be involved?
�. Nell, this is -- this is not too large a lake
(indicating on map).
You could -- you could construct that with
a -- it might take a little small pan to move the
dirt, and a sheepb 'foctroller and a Bulldozer.
Do you -- as I understand you'll be worming directly
in the stream, is that correct?
A. No, we will not. They'll not be working directly
in the stream.
These ponds are located in the -
�. (Interposing) oh, yes, well, I see what you mean.
Yes, you would have to be working --- this dam
would have to be worked from here across here,
and your sequence of constructing the dam, of
course, would prepare this area and then place
your pipes underneath there and then continue
your fill operation for the dam.

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Edwards Direct -302-
¢ Would you have an opinion while -- that while this
particular aspect of construction of the ponds
themselves, the in - stream ponds is taking placef
the effectiveness of your ability to control
sediment at that time from entering Crabtree
Creek?
L Well, this is -- this is one of the operations
that you would have to observe as you go along
what is going to heppen to -- to your sediment
in that area as you construct.
You could go down below on the back side of
the site and dig a big hole with some riprap and
let your velocity slow down on that and leave
your sediment out.
I would like to say one thing here.
This plan is the plan for the finished
project. There are going to be certain controls
certain amount of controls that will have to take
place like the small ones I just mentioned to you
as it's constructed, and of course, ycd re familiar
with State permits and the permits say that if
anything is observed as needed beyond the plan,
it shall be done.
And, so I feel like that this ought to be

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Edwards Cross -303-
clarified because there are changes, modifications
and additions to the plan as you go in the field
and begin to construct.
{� And these changes and modifications,, would, I
expect, be in reaction to what is actually going, o
at the time?
You see a problem, you've got to correct
it?
�. Right. What we've done here is we've tackled the
major problem, and what we feel like is a plan
that will not need much additional added to it
during the construction.
gt Will you be responsible for the maintenance
of the actual control plan as it is put in?
�. As it is being constructed, yes.
And as the site is developed, the maintenance
of those controls, will you be responsible for
those?
�. I have not been contracted for a continuous
maintenance to look after those.
Will you continue on?
With what --- what would be the ndxt, ..
after the initial clearing and construction of
the ponds?

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Edwards Cross -304--
A. Well,. you construct your ponds. You construct
your sediment pits, and along with that you have
construction of your roadway.
Of course, then that would be these
ponds and these sediment pits over here, and of
course, you have to cons uct your plant and
your quarry site and begin your operations and with
your stockpile in this area. (pointing to indi-
pated areas on map.)
Qt Do you know the initial plans for the cleaing
of the pit site itself, that rectangular --
rectangle?
A What do you mean, dJd I know the plans?
Q, Do they -- hour will they go in to actually clear
that portion of the site?
They've got a -�
L This? (pointing to area on map.)
4 The rectangular area there?
L Okay, there's a roadway coming through here, right
across here. The roadway comes: right along
here. (following route across map.)
06 To get to -- to get to the ore itself, they
will have to make some land clearing activity?
A. That's correct,

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Edwards Cross -305-
Do you --- do you know or does this plan comtempl.at
how much -- how that will be phased in with the
quarry operations?
A Of course, you build your road before you get to
the top, and as you build your road, you protect
your erasion as you construct the road, and this
can be done with seeding, and we have -- we have a
schedule here that I might can -- you can enter
this in the record. I'd like to read it right he
from the construction schedule.
I just -- I don't think that's necessary.
What I basically wanted to know is will
that entire rectangular area be cleared initially?
A. I don't know.
It could be in part or it could be the
whole thing, depending on the mining operation.
I don't know.
That is not -- how they plan to clear that par-
ticular portion is not taken into consideration
in your plan?
�. It is taken into consideration.
¢ How do you understand they plan to clear it?
A. How do I --
Q. (Interposing) As they go or at one time clearing?

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Cross
-306- 1
A This? (pointing to rectangular area; on map.)
S� (Nods affirmatively)
�. Well, I really don't know how they're going to
clear the whole area in this area.
But what we would do is we set up the
berms around that areaas delineated.
Then if he stripped it all, then it really
wouldn't make any difference to the sedimentation
controls because those controls would be estab-
lished.
If he did half of it, of course, you'd only
have half the area exposed.
Would this plan --- is there any way in this plan t
take into account, the factor of say, of a major
rainstorm event, during the actual construction
of the ponds or the clearing of the roads?
A. You know, your soil erosion plans are designed
within certain limitations.
And we cannot design these figures to con-
form to a hundred --year storm, but this design
is based within the limits of our design basins
as set up by our State.
Q, So, --
L (Interposing) If we have a hundred -year storm,

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Edwards Cross -307-
we're all going to be gone somewhere, and this
is, too. (indicating map.)
CL How often -- do you have a time frame of how lone
it would take to build the seftent control dams?
A. (hesitating) I don't have that on the construc-
tion schedule.
We have a sequence of the schedule, but I
think those sediment control dams could be
built in -- each one, a matter of four or five
working days apiece to construct one, and then
construct another one.
Do you consider this -- this whole site relative —
would you call it relatively difficult to control
sediment?
A. No.
Would the steepness of terrain, the general
topographical aspects of the site, would that
impress you as calling for more stringent measures
than generally would be applicable?
A. Yeah, the -- of course the area -- of course the
site is steep.
Now, the areas being disturbed through
here are really not that steep, so we're not
getting into an area that is extremely steep that

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Edwards Cross -- 30 8-
we're -- you know -- stripping all the land off.
The steepness does have an effect on the -Mo.
on your design, yes.
This plant that -- as I understand it this is
the, initial sedimentation control plan?
L This is the plan that we did and submitted to the
State.
Do you have any knowledge of where the quarry pit
area is likely, to expand in the future?
A. No, I do not have any knowledge at this time.
This is the area (indicating on map) that
we designed this plant to be at this -- about in
this location.
4f course, this is one of the things that
would change the conditions, if it is expanded
to some other location, then you work your plans -
if you do expand the operation or move any part
of the operation and your sediment control as
needed would move, as you moved your operation
from one area to the other.
9� What is the general nature of the area today?
Right now?, with regards to sedimentation, or
erosion?
�. Through here? (indicating area on map.)

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Cross -309-
(Nods affirmatively)
I have not been over the entire site, but in its
natural state, I think you will observe that there
are some very steep areas that are eroded -- or
have eroded and have stabilized themselves.
All right, --
With natural water courses, you're going to have
some erosion in there.
14R. OAKLEY: We have no further questio>g.
Thank you.
CHAIRMAN SMITH t Mr. Kimzey.
MR. KIMZEY: I have just one or two on
redirect, sir.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR.- KIMZEY:
QL fir. Edwards, you may have a seat.
(Witness resumes witness stand.)
Vx. Oaklev asked you about the -- building
the dams in the stream beds or over the streams.
What's the nature of these streams? Are
they active, running streams all the time or --
A. There -- there is some water in the stream.
Predominantly they're what's called wet -weather

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A.
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Redirect
-314-
streams.
Viet -weather streams?
Yes, there -- there is some water at times coming
into those.
I see. And I believe you started to refer to a
construction schedule that. you had on another
map there.
Did you submit several individual designs
of each of these dams and the other erosion control
devices to the State in addition to the plan
which is shown as exhibit 14 there?
Yes, we have two other -- two .other sheets that
have some details on them.
And do - did those plans meet the approval of
the State insofar as meeting the design criteria
shown in the booklet which is -- if we can identify
that --
(Interposing) You're talking about thb? (showing
booklet to Mr. Kfmzey.)
Yes. -- which is -- we can identify that now
as the next exhibit number, I guess.
Based on this, yes, it is.
(MAKE STONE' S EXHIBIT 15,
MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)

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Edwards Redirect - 311-
(Mr. Kimzey) Were the -- then the additional
designs of the individual items do come within all
the criteria set forth in exhibit 15, is that right
J. Yes .
Does the construction schedule.explain essentially
how this would be designed.-- how this would be
initially constructed in order to preserve the
utmost protection for the park area against
sedimentation?
A. Yes, it does.
And you've given us a general overview of that
without having to refer to that construction
schedule?
L Yes, sir.
I.R. XIMZEY: I have no further questions.
C.HAIRMAtd S11ITH Mr. Oakley?
MR. OAKLEY :. No. sir.
MR. VAN HO%N : I have a few, Mr. Chairman.
CHAIRMAN SMITH: All right.
MR. VAN HORN: Mr. Edwards.
�. Yes, sir.
MR. VAN HORN: What is the origin or
nature of the pre-existing ponds in the upper
area there?

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commission -312-
I'm trying to get a feel for the drainage of
that site.
A I'm sorry, I can't -- I couldn't answer that.
MR. VAN HORN: All right.
A. T'.ey are existing and that's all I know,
MR. VAS+? 1,1ORN : Taking in mind peak
velocities during peak periods of rainfall and
potential storm flushing, what particular consi-
derations have you used in your planning to handle
run --off during construction and during the initial
period of active life of the property?
A. Well, the brush barriers, of course, would be
one of the first things that would take care
of it for the initial, and then the ponds them-
selves would, which all the water would go into
would be the point that would slow the velocity
down and run -off -with velocity controls out at
the end of the overflow structures.
M.R. VAN HORN: Would it be your -- is it
your position then that during projected peak
rainfall periods, that the lakes would not be
flushed in such a manner that sediment would flow
into the streams move and beyond the requirements
of the Stag standards?

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Edwards Commission -313--
A. That's my opinion, yes.
Pal.. VAN 110M: That's all, Mr. Chairman,
CILURMAN SMITH: Any other questions?
(mr. laiggs raises hand.)
C sAIRbULN SKITH: Yes, Air, Riggs,
MR. RIGGS: how such is -- is this opera-
tion going to increase the net flora of the Crabtree
Creek itself, or its cumulative impact upon the
creek?
A. Ah ---it's measurable, but it's negligible.
Fitt. RIGGS : Why is it negligible?
A. Well, it's not that much additional cleared
area that would increase the volume of the run-off
in -- compared to the overall tract of land.
11R. RIGGS: How much land are we draining
there and running down those ditches to the
ponds?
A. (No response)
MR. RIGGS : A hundred acres?
A. No.
MR. RI GGS : Fifty acres?
A. No, this -- at this point, let me measure this
stockpile area.
(Going to map on writing board with ruler.)

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Edwards Commission -314-
MR. RIMZEY: Mr. Edwards, keep your voice
up -so the Commissioners can hear you, please
air.
A Probably fifteen acres, in here (indicating) .
MR. RIGGS: Have your calculations included
the downstream capabilities of Crabtree Creek to
handle the additional water flow off that site?
A We did not calculate it per se, but from observa-
tion this is not going to increase Crabtree Creek
with any significance that we would be concerned
about.
In other words, the amount of area that is
cleared here as relates to any other type of
development, is of such magnitude that I don't
feel like we can say it would work to the detrime,
of the flooding of Crabtree.
I know anything you clear is going to add
to water. I realize that.
MR. RIGGS: All right, I'm just trying
to get a feel for the order of magnitude of the
increase here.
If you have ten of these things !downstream
and they all increase it by ten percent, you
all of a sudden have got a major impact.

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Edwards Commission - 315-
A. That's true. Of course, this is what happens as
we develop everywhere. We get an increase of
run-off. '
Of course, we can drop our velocity --
slow they velocity to keep the scouring action away
and retard it from getting into the stream
to keep it as much as we can from flash flooding.
But this cleared area is going to get into
your stream, It's gon' get in --- it's more water
that's -going to get into it.
MR. RIGGS: Right.
You don't have any idea how much we are
taking about, or what percentage of the total
area --
IL (Interposing) Well, let's say --
MR. RIGGS: -- that we're talking about?
L Well, let's say if we use --
MR. RIGGS: What does negligible mean?
A. well, in a storm --
MR. RIGGS: Yes.
A. -- if this -- if this creek is in flood stage in
a storm, then I don't feel you could take away
this and tell any difference in the creek.
(indicating proposed property site map.)

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commission -316-
MR. RIGGS: Have you calculated these
figures?
A No. No, I have not. This is just from experience.
I mean, an example of this,. if you've
got -- let's use some round figures. Let's say
we've got twenty acres and just using that as an
example, let's say there's two hundred acres in
here. Of course, you're looking at one tenth
of the area being cleared.
You're looking at a run-off on these
steep areas of what?, at two tenths.
This may increase it to four tenthso So
you're doubling that twenty acres, getting the
equivalent of a forty -acre run-off and then
you've got the hundred and sixty acres left.
So, you've got -- as I said, you've got an
increase of a hundred percent on about twelve and
a half percent of the property.
But, now, that is run-off and then, of
course, you've got these buffer areas down here
that are slowing the velocity down.
So, it's not like it's contributing --
just like a storm, it's not like a storm
drainage system emptying directly into it.

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Commission -317»
It retards the flow. It retards the run-
off into the creek. It's contributing at a slower
rate.
MR.KKIMZEY: Mr. Chairman, of course, I
would not object to the Commissioner's questions
as irrelevant. I.would remind the Commission that
it has been stioulated by the State that
sediment is the only concern of the run-off into
the creek.
And the increased water flow has been
already determined by the State not to be a
concern of the State.
CHAIRMAN SMITHS Mr. Edwards, can you tell
us what the total acreage to be cleared in
this mine site -- what the total operating con-
struction clearance?
A, I didn't --- I don't have my calculations, but ----
(measuring on map posted on writing board.)
-- probably, roadways and everything, I wouldn't
be far off on the twenty acres I came up with
a while ago counting roadways and everything.
CHAIRMAN SMITH I s tht twenty acres that's
requirdd to operate this quarry, including stock-
piles and --

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Edwards Commission - 318-
L (Interposing) Roadways.
CHAIRMAN SMITH: -- and roadways --
L Roadways.
CHAIRMAN SMITH: -- and the quarry itself?
L The quarry including the lakes, plant site, ponds,
the stockpiles, the roadways going into it.
MR. RIGGS: For the continued --
L ( Interposing) Best your pardon?
MR. RIGGS : For the continued life of this
project?
L Well, as per this plan.
CHAIRMAN SMITH: Would you care to project
what that clearance would be for a fifty-year
life?
L Beg your pardon?
CHAIRMAN SMITH: At a fifty-year life,
what would that clearance amount to then?
L The clearing?
CHAIRMAN SMITH: Yes.
L I would not know. You know, that -- that is a
mining operation and a marketing operation. I
just don't know how -- how much would be
cleared in the fifty years.
MR. KIMZEY: Mr. Chairman, on tbt _point we

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Edwards Coauuis s ion - 319-
will offer Mr. Bratton to testify, but you know the
permit is for ten years, and it has to be reneged
at the end of ten years Tahich gives the Mining
Commission an opportunity each, ten years to look
at the total amount or the State to look at the
total a:aount of clearing anticipated for the next
ten years.
MR. CARLEY: I'm sorry. Could you repeat
that?
MR. I:IMZEY: The Application is for ten
years and mast be renewed each ten years is
my- understanding, is that correct?
ZIR. OAKL,EY: (Nods affirmatively)
CiiAIRrMN SMIT .: Any other questions?
1R. SALISBURY: One question just for
clarification.
riPhon you're talking about the amount of
land to be cleared, as you were measuring, in
your drawings there, does Chat mean that none of
the lands between any of these areas or
associated with them will be cleared, only the
actual parts marked in there?
A. iA: rae --- let re trace over the cleared areas across
the map.
You can see this heavy line here?

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Edwards commission -320-
MR. SALISBURY: Right.
A. Everythina in that is the cleared area.
MR. SALISBURY: I understand that, but I'm
talking ibout the areas in between and up here --
A. (Interposing) You talking about here and here?
MR. SALISBURY: Yes, in between up here
where the plant is and the -- where the stockpile
is, where you put all that area, I noticed you
didn't figure into your calculations.
Are you assuming that will not be cleared
at all?
A. Well, actually I did throw a couple of acres in
there.
I basically took this area and this area,
and the areas here and here and here and here,
and roughly linear footage for roads and travel -
ways, and that's how I roughly came up with the
twenty acres.
But in other words, what -- it's not --
the clearing here is -- basically here is a
cleared area; here's a cleared area; here would be
a cleared area; that would be a cleared area,
and then your roadways going into it would be
cleared and ditched and protected. (indicating

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Edwards Commission -321-
various areas on map.)
MR. SALISBURY: Unh-hunh. Thank you.
CHAIRMAN SMITH: Any other questbns?
(No response)
CHAIRMAN SMITH: Step down, Mr. Edwards,
please.
(WITNESS EXCUSED.)
CHAIRMAN SMITH: Thank you. Mr. Kimzey?
MR. KIMZEY: Call Mr. Bratton, please..
Whereupon,
JOHN BRATTON,
Having been first duly sworn,
was examined and testified as
follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. KIMZEY:
State your name, please.
A. John Bratton,
Mr. Bratton, ghat is your occupation?
Manager of Wake Stone Corporation.
OL Do you also have a title other than Manager?
L President, yes,sir.

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Bratton Direct -322-
You°re the President of Wake Stone Corporation?
A Yes, sir.
And that is the applicant in this particular
proceedings?
A That is correct.
What.does Make Stone do other than as related to
this, just briefly?
A. We operate a quarry at Knightdale and another
quarry in Moncure, North Carolina.
How long have those quarries been in operation?
A Knightdale'Quarry was started in 170 and the
Moncure Quarry in 176.
Q. Could you state briefly your experience in the
crushed stone business prior to the Knightdale --
beginning operations of the KnightdalS hake Stone
Quarry?
A I went to work for Superior Stone Company in 146
and worked with them continuously until 170 when
I started Wake Stone Corporation.
4 And what is your educational background, Mr.
Bratton?
A What is that?
QL What is your educational background?
A Oho

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Bratton
Q.
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A.
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Direct
-323- 1
Mr. Bratton, I'm sorry.
Attended the North Carolina State University
three years, went on active duty in the Marine
Corps. They sent me to Duke. I graduated from
Duke with a B. S. degree in civil engineering.
And are you a registered engineer?
Yes, I am.
Now, of course, you've sat through the hearings
to this point.
Let's turn to the plans of the proposed
quarry operation which is the subject of this
application.
Could you at this point get up and explain
to the Commission your opinion of how much this
initial application world require to be cleared
there, and the amount of acreage to do so?
Both locate it on the map and give your
opinion.
(witness goes to map posted on writing
board.)
-A. Well, I expect we would initially clear about
three acres for the pit operation.
And we would not disturb the vegetation
between the pit and the plant area, only for a

'I Bratton Direct ---324-
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roadway.
The plant area would take probably two
acres and the stockpile area probably four
acres.
It would be a small amount of clearing to be
done for each of the sediment basins, and we
realize the importance of not disturbing the
vegetation and that was emphasized in our
application.
The vegetation would not be disturbed on
any area that was not required to be disturbed.
Q, Now, as the operation expands, within the terms of
the permit, how would the pit area expand?
Would you just point that out?
A More or less along this ridge (pointing).
¢ All right, sir, would there be a necessity for the
expansion of the actual area -- plant area?
A. No, that wouldn't be expected to beo
fl� All right, how about from the stockpile areas?
A. No, I think they would be sufficient.
Okay, the roadways and the other sedimentation
control devices, would they expand any during
that period of time?
L No, I do not think so.

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Bratton Direct -325-
t� Mr. Bratton, would you describe just basically what
equipment would be located at the pit area, while
you're there?
(Witness points.)
No, I'm sorry. At the plant area and then
the _pit.
Well, crushers, screens, conveyors, the plant
equipment.
All right, sir, and then what --what equipment
would be located at the pit area?
A. Be drills, compressors, shovels, trucks,
loaders. I
And how do you convey your stone from the pit
to the plant and from the plant to the storage
stockpiles?
L Well, from the -- the stone will be transported
by truck from the pit area to the plant area,
and from there it would be conveyed throughout
the plant and in some cases conveyed to the stock-
pile area and in other cases it will be trucked
from a bin to the stockpile areas.
How manytvtal acres of land are involved in the
plan that you see before you .there, and the
Commission has seen before on several different

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Direct
romps.. .
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How many total acres do you have?
L In the tract?
OL Yes.
L Approximately a hundred ninety-five.
Now, is there a portion of that property which is
outlined there but no particularly noticeable
to the Commission from that distance which is not
within the plan?
�. Y-es, this area is not in the plan. There is a
small area here that is not in the plan, and there
is another area which you cannot see -- which is no
marked on the map, rather, right here, maybe an
acre and a fraction.
All of the area that you see within that map
except those you just outlined are within the
hundred ninety-five acres?
L That's correct.
Q. That you would control and operate this plant from,
is that correct?
L That's correct.
Now, -- you may have a seat again, at this point,
I believe.
(Witness resumes the witness stand.)
9� (Mr. Kimsey) Would you explain to the Court --

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Bratton Direct -32 i--
I'm sorry -- to the Commission, what factors led y
to this application and the proposed development
of this site?
A. Well, a number of things. One is the unques-
tionable market that is there. There's nos ques-
tion about the market.
So, therefore, you look for the closest
stone available to serve that market.
Q, And in trying to determine that, did you -- did
you analyze other possible sites along that --
throughout the triasic basin there?
1� Well, I attempted to find other places. I did
not find one.
There was a question from one of ,Commission
members earlier, for Mr. Brown and I believe Mr.
Reed, of the possibility of additional quarry
sites along the rock formation which Mr. Brown
described.
Mould you give your opinion of that
possibility?
A Well, it's my opinion -- it's*-- any I'm pretty
factual that there are not otherr4dites available
anywhere in nor-- in western Wake County.
�Mr. Reed stated that he's been looking for

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Bratton
NUS
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Direct
twenty years.
- 328-- 1
Martin Marietta has been looking for a num-
ber of years as they stated in the newspaper
recently.
And they -- actually they tried to acquire
my site, because they did not have a site.
..And I think that's proof of the pudding
that competitors have not been able to find a
sited
I don't think there's another site in
western Take County.
If there was another site available, what do you
think would be happening to it.
It would have been operated or attempted to have
been operated long before now.
Now, the -- going to the air quality situation,
the dust control measures.
Your application contained several measures
to be taken to control the dust.
Would 3pu just explain briefly what those
are?
The application is already in evidence as
Exhibit A by the Department.
Well, the -- probably the road dust is the most --

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Bratton Direct -329-
is the largest source of dust from trucks on the
road.
Q. All right, sire
L And so we can control that by water lagging; a
water truck which sprays to keep this road wet.
There is a possibility of dust from the
drills, but by injecting water in the air, into
the bore holes, we control dust from the drills.
And is that part of your plan for the operation
here, sir?
A. Yes, sir, it is. The plant could create dust , but
by water sprays the dust from the crushing and
screening operation can be controlled.
Would you explain a little more detdl where those
water sprays are located and how they
control the dust on the plant operation itself?
A. Well, the stone is initially sprayed as it is
dumped from the pit trucks into the feeder hopper.
There is additional water sprayed on the
rock as it —m while it's in the jaw crusher.
At transfer points, additional sprays and
on screens, above the.cone crusher, secondary and
tertiary crushers, water is sprayed.
And when we convey dry stone out, directly

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Bratton Direct -330-
to stockpile, it is also -- it is sprayed at that
paint.
�. Now, there have been previously identified and
stipulated to as Wake Stone exhibit number 5,
whicih is an air pollution control permit number
43860
wag this issued to you by the Department
of Natural and Economic -- Natural Resources
and Community Development --
A. (Interposing) Yes, sir- it was.
Qt -- in response to your application?
IL Yes*
¢ And does it indicate that. all of your air pollu-
tion control devices and emission control devices
result in meeting the State standards for --
A. (Interposing) Yes.
-- air pollution control and dust?
A Yes.
Do you happen to know what some of those standards
are?
�. We have never had any problem in -- we've never
been cited for any violation.
I have read that the ambient air quality
level is sixty microgram per cubic meter, I

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Direct
-331-
believe.
g,
I refer you to Wake Stone Exhibit number 14 which
is in evidence by stipulation,.and ask if you're
familiar with paragraph A403 which states the
ambient quality for P
suspended articulate matter
P
at sixty micrograms per cubic meter annual geametria
mean?
A.
Yes a
Q,
Has Fake Stone Quarry Kni at htdale or at Moncure
Q
ever violated those standards so far as you or the
State people who monitor this regularly ever --
L
No, sir.
Have you ever had any complaints at t:either of
those, or has the State ever had any complaints
about dust or air emission of dust?
�.
I'm told that they have not.
Q►
Would you intend to operate the proposed site
in the same manner to prevent that dust or air
emission controls from --
L
(Interposing) Yes, we do.
¢
---- getting out of hand?
One on the top which has not been touched
on prior to this time, lair. Bratton, is the possi-
bility of buffer zones and other protective

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Bratton Direct -332--
devices for the park.
Would you explain what Wgke Stone's position
is as to buffer zones for the protection of Umetead
Park?
A Well, we've discussed buffers on a number of
occasions, and we're willing to --- to provide for
any reasonable buf f or.
¢ what footage have you discussed in the past with
the State Department administrative personnel as
reasonable buffer?
A. Well, at one point we discussed a hundred to a
hundred fifty feet along Crabtree Creek, and I
believe fifty feet along the eastern boundary.
4 And do you have a current position as to what
you would consider within the area of reasonable-
ness as to buffer zones that you would propose that
the Mining Commission itself could consider?
�. Well, I think maybe one way to approach it would
be the r-- from a noise standpoint, the -- consider
two hundred feet of vegetation and so, therefore,
possibly two hundred feet would be a reasonable
amount,
So, that would provide the maximum noise attenua-
tion if you had two hundred feet?
A That's correct.

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Bratton Direct -333--
AMR. OAKLEY : Object.
MS. FRENCH: What grounds?
MR. OAKLEY: I don't think he's qualified
to answer that question.
MR. KIMZEY: Is that
MS. FRENCH: Overruled, Mr. Oakley.
MR. KIMZEY: I believe the answer is al-
ready in the record.
I didn't have a further expectation on
that.
Q, (Mr. Rimzey) I believe in your application you
refer to the possibility of constructing berms if
necessary.
If you look at the map that's on the board,
and look at the border between Umstead Park and
the proposed site, but not along Crabtree Creek,
would you point that out please?
(Witness points to indicated area on map.)
If the --- if the State determined that a
berm would be helpful in protecting Umstead Park
along that area, would that be a possibility for
your company?
�. Yes, - indeed.
�, What type of berm and what type construction would

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Direct
-334- 1
you envision?
A. Well, I think whatever we thought was required and
whatever they thought would serve the purpose.
And it's really no big problem. Berms
are used in a lot of quarries, and it's a normal
way of protecting the boundary.
Q: All right, .sir.
Now, if you will take your seat.
(Witness resumes witness stand.)
Mr. Bratton, what is your understanding,
first of all of the duration of this permit?
A. Ten years.
OL Time it's viable?
A. Ten years.
a Ten years?
A. Yes, sir.
Q► Now, you've heard testimony and what is your
opinion as to the potential exploitation of this
site in terms of duration?
A Beyond ten years?
Qt Yes.
A Well, I -- hopefully it would be -- it has re-
serves, I'm quite sure, beyond the ten-year life.
And the -- as far as years are concerned,

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sratton Direct -335-
that's kind of tied to the -- to the market,
the rate of production and sales.
Well, you have heard Mr. Reed say that the geo-
logical formations would support such as -- I
suppose -- a fifty-year life at a million tons a
year, and do you agree with him?
�. (Interposing) Yes, I think so.
How would you go about developing the -- or Wake
Stone go about developing this site over a fifty-
year period in regards to permit applications,
as you understand the statutory scheme?
�. Well, our -- this permit we've applied for is
for ten years.
At the end of ten years, I --in fact during
ten years, I understand it's reviewed periodically
and our operation, I know is reviewed annually,
and so we would work with the Land Resources
Division, if they saw we were not -- we needed to
make a change in the direction we were moving,
we would make a change.
� Could you answer question w r the that has been raised ,
prior to this time by Commission members, then,
as to what total development over the fifty-year
period would eA:ompass with any degree of

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nratton
Direct -336-
accuracy at this point in time?
A•
Well, it would be hard to do, but I would -- i
would say fifty million tons, possibly fifty
acres plus.*
Q.
Now, that would be fifty acres plus out of the
hundred ninety-five acre site, is that correct?
A.
That's right.
Now, the -- in your application I believe you also
mentioned the possibility of -- or not the possi-
bility, but you do state directly in your
application that there could be a donation of the
pit area to the State.
Would you describe that, please?
A.
Well, after the quarry is worked out, it would
normally -- it will fill with water.
If it becomes a clear water lake we would
have no further -- Wake Stone would have no
further use for that lake, and I'm sure it would
by my intention, and I think the company's inten-
tion to deed that property to the State for
additional land for an addition to Umstead
Park.
a
And how many acres did you state in your applica-
tion that you would envision as being encompassed

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Bratton Direct -337-
with that donation that you've --
L (Interposing) I believe seventy-five acres were
mentioned.
¢ And would that encompass -- what area would that
encompass?
A. That would encompass the pit area, plus some con-
necting land to the Umstead Park.
Now, would you --
MR. KIKZEY: (to reporter) Would you maikk
these two exhibits, please?
(WARE STONE'S EXHIBITS 16 and 17
MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
Q, (Mr. Kimzey) Mr. Bratton, I hand you what's
been marked as Wake Stone exhibit 16 and ask you
if you can identify this first of all?
A. (perusing exhibit 16) This is an old quarry
that was closed.
It's located near the town of Wendell in
Wake County, and it was known as the Rockton
Quarry, and it was closed --
Q. (Interposing) When was that quarry closed?
L It was closed in the thirties.
And I also hand you what's been marked as Wake
Stone's exhibit 17 and ask if you can identify

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Bratton
L
NUO
A.
OL
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1�
Direct
-338- 1
that?
(perusing exhibit 17) Now, this is another quarry
that's been abandoned just recently near Carrboro,
and it's an old quarry that American Stone operate
and it's just -- I believe it was closed last
year and is used as a reservoir for the town of
Chapel Hill, now.
Now, do you know approximately when these pictures
were taken?
I believe November let.
Pointing to exhibit 16 and 17, can you illustrate
your testimony to the Commission concerning the
potential for donation of a quarrying site to the
State Park, illustrate what an abandoned quarry
sites have -- would look like?
Well, then the quarry is filled with ground water,
and they do make beautiful clear water lakes,
very clear, much clearer really than natural
farm --
(Interposing) I believe --
ponds.
I believe you stated -- excuse me. I
didn't mean to interrupt you.
I beieveyou stated that exhibit 16 was an
•�

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Bratton Direct -339-
-- was abandoned some thirty years ago?
L Fifty years ago.
¢ Fifty years ago?
A. Right.
g► Was there any reclamation in effect at that time -
L (Interposing) No.
-- to reclaim that quarry?
A. No.
How about exhibit 17? Can you illustrate your ---
what reclamation progress has been taken advantage
of there of this quarry -- this quarry closed
last year?
A. That's right. And this quarry came under the
present reclamation plan which are required of
quarries, and so it was sloped, planted and so
forth, I'm sure, according to Mr. Jim Simons'
instructions, and I'm told by Mr. Simons that
the area back here (indicating on photograph)
was not -- I asked him about why it was not reclaim
and he said the town of Chapel Hill requested that
it not be planted, because they were going to use
it for a water treatment plant, I believe, or
something.
They could utilize the stone basin,
r"

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IBratton
Direct
-340-
itself.
¢
Thank you, sir.
During the past few years, have you had an
expansion of your facilities at Knightdale occur
which it..was necessary'_to get additional zoning?
A,
Yes, we did.
What was --
A.
(Interposing) It wasn't so much an expansion.
We did buy some additional land and ask
to have it rezoned.
Q,
Would you just explain to the Commission what the
response in the community was concerning that
expansion at Knightdale after your operations
there for a period of time?
MR. OAKLEY: Objection.
MS. FRENCH: ghat grounds?
MR. OAKLEY: Not relevant.
MS. FRENCH: Could you restate the question,
please?
(Mr. Kimzey) What was the response from the
Community concerning your proposed addition to
the Knightdale Quarry which you operate after
your operation there for a period of some seven
or eight years?

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Bratton Direct -341-
MS. FRENCH: Okay, just a moment, Mr.
Bratton.
(DISCUSSION OFF RECORD -- at the Bench.)
MS. FRENCH: You can answer that one
question.
A. I had very good support from the community for --
surrounding the Knightdale Quarry. None of the
adjoining property owners objected -- in fact,
nobody objected including the adjacent property
owners.
One of the adjacent property owners was
Betty Silver who is --.was on the County Planning
Board, and has an old homeplace there.
Another supporter who could not. appear --
would have appeared but could not -- he was a
mayor of Rnighdale and he sent a letter down
stating that we had been good neighbors and had
been an addition to the community rather than
a detraction.
That letter appears as one of the stipulated
documents, I believe, does it not?
L I believe so, yes.
¢ Changing topics, Mr. Bratton, there is --- you
have heard the discussion concerning the possibili

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Direct
-342-
of noise intrusion on the park, have you not?
L Yes.
And many of the measurements, both made by the
State and by Kimley-Horn's witness, were made in
objecting -- projecting the design, if you recall
the testimony, in Knightdale, Moncure and the
Crabtree Quarry, which is not your quarry, is
that correct?
A. That is correct.
Would you explain to the Commission what you would
propose and what may be done at the proposed site
that may be advantageous over the existing equip-
ment which the noise monitoring occurred -- at
which noise level monitoring occurred?
A. Well, there've been a number of changes made
and there's been a lot of study made on improving
the environmental impact of equipment.
And a compressor is a good example. The
compressor manufacturers now have to enclose
the compressors in insulated housings to reduce
the noise.
Q, Because of --
They call them whisperizers.
I'm sorry, I interrupted you. You said that they

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IBratton
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-343-
were what?
They refer to them as whisperiaed units. The
sa -- the sound of the, the noise level, is very
much reduced from the old machines.
in fact, that' s the only -- all new com-
pressors have to be built with those restrictions
on them.
Are the compressors in use at the Knightdale
Quarry whisperized? Do they contain whisper-
izers?
No, they -- we bought them before they started
making them.
Would they be much -- how -- a louder --
(interposing) Yes.
-- measure of noise -
-
Yes.
-- than the new compressors?
Yes, they would. -
How about the ones at Moncure that were measured
by the State?
They were bought before they had to be whi.sper-
ized, also.
And are you aware of the Crabtree Quarry Teer
operation there at the pre -- that are present

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Direct -344-
there? Do you know whether they are whisperized?
L I'm not -- yeah, I'm familiar with the operation
but not that familiar with it.
Now, what other advances in technology and design
in the state of the art would assist you in noise
control?
A. Next would be the drills.
They are probably the noisiest machine
that we use.
And now they have hydraulic drills which
are much, much quieter.
They use hydraulics rather than air --
instead of compressed air.
Also, down in the -- we used what is refer3
to as "down in the hole drills".
The drills that we use have hammers above
ground and you continue -- you add steel onto
them and the hammers remain above ground, whereas
the new hole drills has the hammer just behind
the bit and it follows the bit into the hole
and is just below the surface which means that
it's a very quiet operation.
Were the noise measurements taken at the Knightda
Mooncure and Crabtree of -- are they new -type
I

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Bratton Direct -345-
bits using hydraulic adapters --
A. (Interposing) No, ours are the Pne=Atic drills
with the hammer above ground,
Q What other advantages in technology would be
forthcoming to help control noise?
A. Well, there's much better muffling of mobile
equipment, shovels, trucks, cranes, which improves
the noise level.
There's a lot of work being done on plant
equipment now.
In fact, we are participating'in a project
that a consulting engineering firm in Massachusett
has. It's a contract that they have with the
Bureau of Mines.
There are two parts of it actually that
we're participating in.
one is the --- reducing the noise level at
the jaw crusher from the operator's standpoint,
not so much the environment standpoint.
They -- we now have a new control house,
well insulated and so forth,
And they've taken noise level readings
pxbr to the construction of the new house, and
they've taken them afterwards and determined how

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Direct Bratton 346-
much improvement has been made, and so forth.
The other -phase of the project has to do
with reducing noise levels of screens.
What -- what portion of the process is
referred to as the screening, and how does it
affect noise?
Could you just explain that briefly?
A. Well, the rock 0 conveyed to a screen and it
throws down onto the screen.
The screen is vibrating. It's rock on
steel, and
(Interposing) Is that a fairly noisy part of the
quarrying operation?
L It is fairly noisy,
What are you doing at your Knightdale project
that is in the noise abatement study of the
screening operation?
A. Well, that's part of the project that's being
studied now to use rubber -covered screen cloth,
and side rails, to reduce the noise levels.
And they are things that -- it's no
question, it does reduce the noise level. Also,
from an economic standpoint it's already developed
that the -- it costs a whole lot more initially

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Bratton Direct -347-
but as far as the operating cost, it supposedly is
no more than -- than using wire cloth.
So, on a new plant like a quarry at this
Cary site, we could utilize those more modern
pieces of equipment and knowledge that we have.
¢ If you use those, what would happen to the noise
level as compared to the present quarry site?
A. It would be much improved.
¢ Improved.
Mr. Bratton, to the best of your knowledge
and ability, have you met all the State standards
that you know of exists and -- concerning the
possible encroachment on the Umstead Park as to
sedimentation?
L Yes, we have.
¢ Have you met all the State standards that you know
of or are aware of as to any possible encroachment
on air pollution or dust standards?
A. Yes, we have.
¢ I believe you have been issued a permit in that
area, is that right?
A, Yes.
¢ That's one of the two areas that the State issues
permits?

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Bratton
Direct -348-
L
That's right.
g
How about as
to the --
L
(Interposing)
Well, actually -- excuse me.
Go ahead.
01
How about as
to the closed water systeuP Have
you met all the standards -- State standards
there?
L
Yes, we have.
And you have
been issued a permit>there, is
that --
L
(Interposing)
That's correct.
9
-- correct?
L
Yes.
Q.
How about as
to traffic? Do you have -- is there
would you --
would the proposed mining operation
create any traffic conditions that is not Wall
within all State standards that you're aware
of?
A.
No , --
MR. OAKLEY: Objection.
A. -- I don't think --
MS, FRENCH: Wait a minute. Grounds?
MR. OAKLEY: I don't think there's any
State standards on traffic that have been testif

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B ratton
Direct
too
-349-
-If he testified to that at first and
then answered, I wouldn't have an objection,
MS. FRENCH: Mr. Kimzey, what standard
are you referring to?
MR, KIMZEY: Any standard that he has know-
ledge of, It's been stipulated that the State
Department of Transportation says that the traffic
situation does not cause problems.
It's already been testified to by his own
consultant. I think, he'has knowledge of both those
things.
MR. 4AKLEYs I think the question could be
made more specific.
MR. KIMZEY: I'll be happy to rephrase the
question.
MS. FRENCH: We will sustain the objection
and allow you to rephrase the question.
MR. KIMZEY: I'll be glad to rephrase the
question.
(Mr. Kimzey) Are there any -- does --- are there
any safety factors which are encroached upon
by the proposed traffic patterns which might be ---
come about as a result of the proposed mining

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Bratton
IX
NUO
A.
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Q.
A.
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Direct
-350-
at this site?
My knowledge of that would be the information I
have from the letter to the Resources Department
from the Highway Department, and that we've seen
and that -- and from what our expert witnesses
have testified to.
And as I recall their testimony, and -the letter,
all of those factors are well within the State
requirement, is that correct?
That's my understanding, yes.
And are you aware of any State standards as to
visibility encroachment on the park?
No, I'm not.
From your understanding of the testimony of
Mr. Harbison, would there be any visible encroachme
on the park?
It's my opinion there would be no visible encroach-
ment.
And lastly, do -- and to the best of your know-
ledge, do all of your blasts -- does your blast-
ing operation meet all the standards set by the
State?
Yes, it does,
AIR. KIMZEY: I have no further questions
t

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I Bratton
Direct/Cross
of this witness.
CHAIRMAN SMITH: Mr. Oakley?
MR. OAKLEY: Yes, sir.
- 351-
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. OAKLEY:
Mr. Bratton, I believe you stated -- what is your
expectation of the life of this quarry?
A I would hope for many, many years.
¢ Did I hear you --
A. (Interposing) And fifty is a good round figure.
And I believe you said that you would expect
to have to -- to take some fifty million tons out
during the life of the quarry?
X That is -- I think -- a fair assessment for a
fifty-year life.
Would fifty years and fifty million tons, would
that relate basically to one million irons per
year?
A That is correct.
Is that your present plans of production?
A well, it would average that. Fifty million tons
and fifty years would average a million tons a
year.

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Bratton Cross -352--
And at what production rate do you plan to
initially start?
L Oh, approximately half a million.
And over what period of time would you expect that
to increase to, say, a million?
A. Well, I think it might increase to a million due
to some construction projects that have --- are
coming up right away.
And then I think it may fall back below a
million and take some more time to build back up,
to the million.
�► In number of years, what are we talking about?
Three years from now?
L That's hard to say. I don't know when these
projects are going to be ready for stone.
I think three years would probably be a
good estimate.
I believe you said that you had plans to deed
portions of this property to the State?
A. (No response)
Is that right?
A. Well, I certainly am willing to do so.
When would you expect a deed transfer of that
nature to take place?

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Bratton Cross -353-
A Well, that would be at the -- after the reserves
on the property had been exhausted.
And would that be fifty years hence?
�. Yes, possibly if fifty years was the life.
What are some of the alternatives towards -- as
far as reclamation to not -- to not giving it --
away that particular part of the property?
L Well, an alternative would be to keep ownership
of the lake.
Q How deep would you expect that lake to be at the
end of fifty years?
L Oh, several hundred feet.
Do you have -- do you have any idea how long it
would take for a pit of that size to fill up so
that it would be a lake?
L No, I -don't know. At this point, I don't know
how much --
a Mould you say thirty years?
L Oh, no, indeed. The reservoir at Chapel Hill
filled within a year or les, I believe.
a Would you say ten years?
L Oh, I would say much less than that.
Q, Did the -- do you have knowledge of how the
quarry --- the one you're talking about in Chapel

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Bratton
A.
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Cross
-354- 1
Hill filled up?
Was it a natural process or was there a
stream diverted into it?
I think there was a combination of both, ground
water and natural stream feed.
In this particular site, would you expect a
natural stream to add to the --
It could.
Basically you'd be looking at primarily just
natural rainfall to fill that up -- to make the
lake?
It would depend on -- if you wanted it to fill in
a hurry, you could fill it in a hurry.
If you did not, you could let the -- it
fill naturally with all ground water.
if you'd.�.step to the exhibit behind you.
(Witness goes to writing board where map is
posted.)
How long would the quarry be limited to the
rectangular area representing the pit on that
map?
I think probably -- probably ayear, a year and
a half.
And ---

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Bratton
A.
Q
IL
IE
Cross
-355-r 1
Two years.
And would you tell -- would you tell us your
plans for how that rectangle would grow in, say,
a three-year period? what would be your next
plan?
Conte down like this. ( indicating point of expan-
sion.)
How about five years?
The mark that's on the map,
Ten years?
Going up and out toward Crabtree and way down.
(indicating on map.)
Twenty years?
Ahh -- it's hard to say. I think we'd probably
start ballooning out, going out in all directions.
Would you expect to be moving generally northward,
say, after ten years, fifteen years?
To some extent, we would.
What --- show us on the map, if you will, how it
will expand northward.
Well,
And over what, --,time period.
Well, this ridge runs through here. I think that's
the direction we would go.

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Bratton Cross -356-
And how much -- how much tonnage would you expect
to get out of that area?
L Hmmm -- well, that's difficult to answer, Mr.
Oakley, because you -- it depends on how deep you
are and how much overburden you have to take
off if you find rock in the area.
You are not -- you're not expecting to get the
full fifty million out of that area?
A No,
OL Before it gets to the --
L (Interposing) No.
a -- creek?
L No.
Q. Nell, let's take it on a step further.
What's -- what's this particular area
that is not -- where would you -- where would you
go on that -- on that particular site, where
would the -- where would the pit have to expand
once that initial source has been taken?
L It's right all through this area. (indicating
on map. )
Where was that? I couldn't see.
L Well, sir, it's right down through here, over
through here, over through here, in this

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Bratton^ Cross -»357-
area.
¢ Is that what you consider the life of the quarry?
A. Possibly.
You would not be expecting to move, say, past
the pond that is at the -- the top pond up
there, north of the plant site?
A. Well, at this time, no. I can't answer that.
There's a possibility, I guess, that it
could expand out there. In fact, that's really
in a draw. It's a possibility it could come
out this way. (indicating)
Well, continuing --
A, (Interposing) I tell you, the operation would
be scrutinized well, and if we can go this way wits
doing any damage, we will probably go that way
with it.
But there will be -- it will be scrutinized
by the Land Resources Department all the way
along.
I think if that's any help to answer your
question.
¢ AS -- as you expand, what will be some of the
effects associated with the expansion, for
example --
t

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3ratton Cross -358-
�, (Interposing) Some of the effects would be that,
well, from a water run-off standpoint, we would
have more area in the pit. Therefore, it would
actually decrease the run-off and then you -- than
the land has now, because we'd be collecting the
water in the pit.
As -- once you have an established quarry,
you have means and methods for controlling ---
4 Edell, what --
MR. KIMZEY: Go ahead, Mr. Bratton.
L -- controlling run-off, controlling sedimentation,
controlling all the aspects.
(Mr. Oakley) You'd generally have more uncovered
areas?
A, True, true, you would.
More uncovered area, you'd have less trees, is
that correct?
�. Not necessarily, because anywhere that we have
thin trees on the perimeter, we'll have opportuni
now to plant those areas, which we do now at our
existing quarries.
So, the vegetation might actually in --
crease.
QL Just to tie it down -- I'm not trying to belabor

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Bratton Cross -359-
the point, but just to tie it down, what areas
located on that map would you expect to have to
be quarried to reach the fifty million ton figure?
X Nell, I think the fifty million ton figure could
be reached going out this ridge, back down in
this area, back down -- I know you will have to
relocate maybe some stockpile areas, some roads
and so forth, but I think you can get a --- a fifty
acre area in this vicinity which would give you
the fifty million.
Q, would you -- while in -- in expanding in such
a manner, would you expect the plant site to have
to be moved to another location or expanded?
A. well, possibly.
Q► And the stockpile area?
A. Possibly.
¢ Do you have a figure of the amount of land
clearing that you are going to have to do initially
for the plant site?
A I think -- I think six acres is a good figure,
in regard to the plant and stockpile area,
Q. Does that include the roads and the plant site,
also?
A No*

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Bratton
i A.
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A.
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Cross
- 360-
That figure?
I would say the six acres for stockpile and
plant area. Mould be some additional land on
roadways and then some additional land here at the
pit area.
I believe you mentioned buffer scone.
Was this identified in your mining appli*w
cation?
Buffers would be along park boundaries.
And what -- what amount of buffer did you say
that you had considered?
Well, we have considered a number -- we talked
about a number of different amountsf at one point,
I think we talked about a hundred to a hundred
fifty feet along the creek, and fifty feet
along the eastern boundary.
And then more recently, today, I beleve
I testified that maybe two hundred feet would
be a reasonable figure.
Have you ever had any discussion that centered
along, say, maybe four hundred feet with the --
with State officials?
Yeah, with -- in fact, maybe even six hundred
feet.

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Bratton Cross -361
g, Do you have any objections to four hundred feet
or six hundred feet?
A. Yes, I would have some objections to it.
4 And why would that be?
A. Well, that's taking -- that's taking thirty some
acres of property back here. (indicating on
map.)
I don't know that I will ever use it, but
I --
Can you -- I'm having a hard time seeing --
�. (Interposing) All right, --
-- I can't see you when you're in front of it.
L -- let me move over a little. I'm afraid I'm
going to fall off that ledge.
¢ Would you point out generally the one hundred
foot buffer that you said you were talking about?
L A hundred foot buffer would be ( indicating line
along. park border), and the fifty foot buffer
along Mere (indicating along another property
line on map).
Expand that on out to say a four -hundred foot
buffer.
A. Four hundred would be four inches away from the
property line. That would be more like somewhere

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Bratton Cross -362-
along there (indicating on map) .
Could -- can you read the ground elevation of
that last line you just dreg?
A. Let's see. I'm not sure I know what you're --
what you're referring to is a line Mr. Jim
Simons and I looked at and I believe he was look-
ing at 340, Jim?
MR. SIMONS: It varied in the ravine.
(fir. Oakley) Would you say 330, 340, generally?
L All right, here it is.
Q, What is -- what is the present plant.site ground
elevation?
Aw Approximately three eighty (380).
Q. At -- I believe you said that you discussed four
hundred feet with Jim Simons, is that correct?
A. Four hundred instead of six hundred? Maybe it
was four hundred. I -was thinking maybe it was
six hundred.
QL Would you have an objection to the six hundred
foot --
L (InterpoeLng) Yes, I have some objections to
it.
Q. What would be the basis for your objection?
A Well, it's -- it's -- I think it we follow the

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Bratton Cross -363-
line that Jim was using -- was discussing, it
would take about thirty acres of property, --
take something like from here up there (indicating
on map), and I didn't see where that was neces-
sary.
Do you have any plans for that property?
L No. I don't. I don't.
Q. And you can have a seat.
THE WITNESS: Thank you. (Witness
resumaa9 witness stand.)
¢ (Mr. Oakley) Does your mining application identify
the type of equipment that you were going to
be using in terms of these possibility --
L ( Interposing) The ap ---
a --- for noise abatement?
L No, I don't believe it had -- the equipment some equipment was identified, but I don't
believe it was in relation to noise abatement.
Haveyou ever discussed these new types of noise
abatement equipment with the State?
A I'm really not sure.
I have had some discussions with Mr.
Simons, but whether that came up or not, I'm not
sure.

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Bratton Cross -364-
2
Would it be your intention to, in going ahead with
3
the ro p posed quarry, would it be your intention
4
to use all these types of yp equipments
5
A. Yes, it would. We really would use the best
6
judgment we could in trying to keep the impact
7
on the environment as -- as -- to a minimum,
8
We -- we would have very good intentions
9
and -- and we'd make a very good e2brt to acquire
10
most advanced technical equipment designed along
11
the most advanced technical improvement for reduck
12
noise and what not.
13
(DISCUSSION OFF RECORD - at Department's
14
counsel table.)
15
14R, OAKLEY: We 'have no further questions.
16
Thank you.
17
MR, KIMZEY: I just have one or two on
18
redirect.
19
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21 REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. KIMZEY:
22 Q. You were asked what you -- what would occur when
23 the pit -- when the expansion occurred and the
24 it deepened and
p p you mentioned one possible
25 effect was lessening
your run-off because of

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Bratton Redirect - 365-
the increased area of the pit, is that correct?
L That is correct,
What effect would that have ont- noise abatement
as the pit deepens?
A. well, that would also be an improvement on the
noise level because your equipment would be down
below surface level.
So actually you would not hear the drills,
compressors, trucks and shovels, loaders working
in the pit.
Also, probably would folbw the same plan
that we have at Kngithdale in which we have moved
the jaw crusher into the pit.
Now, there again you move a source of noise
in -- below the surface which improves the
noise.
I see. Now, as to the buffer zone discussion
that Mr. Oakley had with you, When you say you
discussed four hundred or six hundred feet,
do you mean that Mr. Simons suggested those
and you didn't agree to them.
There was a discussion, but your weren't
in on an actual discussion over those as actual
buffer zones, were you?

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Bratton Redirect -366-
A No, I -- would you repeat your question, please?
4 What type of discussion? He says, did you discuss
six hundred feet? Did you consider that a meaning-
ful discussion toward achieving a six -hundred -foot
buffer or a suggestion on his part to --
A. (Interposing) It was a suggestion on his part.
�. Now, didn't you have a fairly meaningful dialogue
with the State and -- concerning a two -hundred -
eighty foot contour line?
A. Yeah, I believe that's correct.
�► And about how many feet would the two hundred
eighty foot oDntour line --
A. (Interposing) I believe that was the hundred
to a hundred fifty foot --
(Interposing) Well, was it your impression at
one time that that's what the State objective --
the State's objectives would have been met with
that contour line?
A I think they would have been well satisfied --
(Interposing) And .your :present --
A. -- with that kind --
Q, I'm sorry.
A -- of buffer.
¢ And your present testimony on buffer zones, as I

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Bratton Redirect - 36 7-
understand it, is that you're willing to reach a
reasonable buffer zone --
A (Interposing) That's correct.
Q► -- with the State?
And you don't have any real hard and fast
limits on that reasonable issue, but you mould
like --
L (Interposing) No, I don't.
-- to achieve a reasonable buffer zone?
MR. KIMZEY: We have no further questions.
CHAIRMAN SMITH: All right.
MR. OAKLEY: We have no further questions.
MR. JOHNSON: Mr. Chairman.
CHAIRMAN S141TH:. Go ahead.
.MR. JOHNSON: Just to get my thinking in
order here.
Does the stone company have fee simple deed
to this hundred and ninety-six acres?
A. It's under option now for fee simple purchase.
r MR.:_.sOdSON : From several --
L (Interposing) From a number -- yes, sir, from a
number of landowners.
MR. JOHNSON: This is -- I'm not concerned.
I'm trying to get my thinking in the thing, --

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Bratton RCommission -368-
A. (Interposing) Yes, sir.
MRL JOHNSON: -- that if -- if the permit
is denied, it will affect more than the stone
company?
L Yes, Sir.
MR. JOHNSON: All right. That clears it
up.
�. Yes, sir.
CHAIRS SMITH: Any further questions?
MR. VAN HORN: Yes, sir.
The question I asked a moment ago, could
you tell us the origin and the nature of the
pre-existing ponds?
�. Yes, air. They are fish ponds. (going to map
posted on writing board.)
This -- this road leads down to a little
cabin, and there's evidence of fishing and swim-
ming at both of these ponds; not much evidence
down here.
These ponds have been here for many years,
and I'm sure that last two owners of this cabin
did not build it.
It was built sometime prior to the last
two owners.

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Bratton Commission -369-
I don't know just what the origin. I as-
sume that'a a little fish pond, also.
MR. VAN BORN: There is no indication they
are for sediment control purposes?
A. No, sir, I don't think so.
MR. VAN MORN: All right, thank 3pu.
MR. RIGGS: I have a question.
CHAIRMAN SMITH: All right.
MR. RIGGS: How much overburden will it
be in the mining of this rock?
X %dell, it varies quite a bit. There are ridges
and valleys and the rock more or less follows
the ridge top.
In this ridge -- in this ridge there is the
least amount of overburden, and it is in the
order in this area, I think, of probably, oh,
average fifteen to twenty feet, maybe.
MR. RIGGS: What is the maximum?
�. Oh, maximum, oh, we have is eighty feet, I
believe.
MR. RIGGS: What is the disposition of this
overburden as you clear the areas and mine,
what do you propose to do with this amount of
overburden?

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Bratton Commission -370-
x Well, the first overburden would be used for
building a ramp at the jaw crusher for dumping,
and some leveling in the plant area and stockpile
area.
Chances are it would take all that overburd
-- initial overburden for construction purposes.
MR. RIGGS: Initial of what? The first
year's supply?
A. Well, the first stripping -- first initial strip-
ping, which would be of probably a year or a
year and a half.
And then after that, I don't know for sure.
At the Knightdale Quarry, the initial
stripping was used for.construction purposes.
Ever since then there's been a demand for fill
material in the area, and so we disposed of it in
that -- in that manner.
We give it to the contractors -- grade
contractors that need it and that moves it for
use
MR. RIGGS s If you feel there's fifteen
to eighty feet here, thata quite a volume of
material.
A. (Interposing) That's quite a lot, that's certainl

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Commission -371-
true, and whether we will be able to dispose of
all of it in the -- in that manner, I don't
know.
But there is an awful lot of construction
going on in the Research Triangle area and in that
triasic basin that soil is not a good foreign
material, fill material.
In fact some of the material from the
Knightdale Quarry has gone as far as the Research
Triangle for fill material.
MR. RIGGS: And then my last question would
be when it comes to reclamation, the -- it pro-
bably deals with the first part of that question,
what would youdo with any overburden material
that you have to stockpile on your property there?
L Well, I think that's where we would want to
utilize it for building berms on the perimeter
of the property.
MR. RIGGS: Could you define these berms
a little bit?
Well, berms are -- are fills, --
MR. RIGGS: ( Interposing) The land forms
ridges --
L That's -- that is true.

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Bratton Commission -372-
MR. RIGGS: 4f what dimensions?
A. Well, they -- it can vary, whatever you want it
to be.
You can build it twenty feet high or you
can build it -- chances are it wouldn't be over
fifty feet high. It would be less than that.
But thirty -- twenty to thirty.fest,, in that
range, normally and slopes -- both slopes, and
probibly put a roadway width at the top.
And then you plant it and -- first with
grasses and then -- ah -- and then trees.
MR. RIGGS: So, your idea of coming out
with the berms is partly to get rid of your --
any overburden material?
�. That would be one -- would be one reason for buil
ing berms.
MR. RIGGS: You would not backfill in the
quarry with it?
No.
MR. RIGGS: That's all.
CHAIRMAN SMITH: Any further questions?
MR. SALISBURY: Yes, sir, two questions.
CHAIRMAN SMITH: All right.
MR. SALISBURY: Sir, in building these

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Bratton Commission -373-
berms, that would necessitate then new roads out
into those sites, would it not?
A. Yes, it would.
MR. SALISBURY: Which do not show at this
point --
(interposing) That's correct. That's correct.
But once you get into operation, if --
you can control -- if you have to build roads, you
can take care of your sedimentation.
You have your sediment equipment, stone,
riprap, what not. It's really -- once you get
into production and operation, you really -- your
biggest troubles with sedimentation are over.
MR. SALISBURY: And I want -- one clarifi-
cation on one other point.
When you were testifying originally in
terms of this modern equipment that you are talkie
about, I believe you said that that equipment
could be used -- or you could use more modern
equipment, and then Mr. Oakley was talking to
you, you said that you'd use your best judgment
in using more modern technical equipment.
I guess what I'm asking, does that mean
that you are going to use the kind of equipment

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Bratton Commission - 37 4-
that you described to us a little while ago?
A Yes, we -- if we buy new equipment, it will cer-
tainly be the new design, -- most modern equip-
ment. It will be -- make the least am unt of
noise.
In some cases, maybe in the case of trucks,
now, we possibly, since we moved the jaw crusher
in the hole at Knightdale, we have an extra truck
or two there.
That truck -- those trucks will be trans-
ferred to the new operation. Maybe not all of
it, but we would -- we would make a very sincere
effort to have the most modern equipment that we
could get there.
MR. SALISBURY: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN SMITH: Mr. Bratton, I gueg3we have
asked this question as number of different way in
the past.
In the language of the law in the Mining
Act of 1971, affected land is defined as the
surface area of land that is mined, the surface
area of land on which overburden and waste is
deposited, and the surface area of land used for
processing the treatment stockpiles and sediment

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Bratton
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Commission
ponds .
-37g- 1
Now, I'd like to use that language and ask
this question again.
Yes, sir.
CHAIRMAN SMITH: within your first ten year
of operation, how much affected land do you
expect to have?
All right, sir. First I think the first ten years
of the operation, I think six acres is a pretty
good figure for the plant and stockpile area.
That would be disturbed land.
I think the pit area would grow to probably
eighteen acres in the first ten years, --
CHAIRMAN SMITH: That's twenty-four.
-- of disturbed land.
CHAIRMAN SMITH: Is that twenty-four acres
now, or are you summing as you go along?
No, sir, I'm not. No, sir.
CHAIRMAN SMITH: Twenty-four acres?
Yes, sir.
CHAIRMAN SMITH: All right.
And then it would be additional disturbed land,
if we could not dispose of our overburden as
bar material, then there would be additional

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Bratton Commission -376-
disturbed land for a berm, and that amount I
can't tell you because I don't know whether it
would be zero or several acres.
CHAIRMAN SMITH: Unh-hunh.
A I would be -- it would be some roads, certainly,
that would.be required to be built for different
reasons.
Access to the pond would be --- roads would
be needed.
But they would be stabilized and controlled
and wouldn't amount to very much acreage.
CHAIRMAN SMITH: The three ponds might be
what? Three acres? Five acres?
�. (Interposing) Oh, I think these are fractions of
acres. And that's about point six acre (.6).
This is about point -- itmust be point 7 (.7)
acre -- or drainage of point seven (.7) for the
pond. (Witness is looking at map posted on writing
board and estimating areas of several ponds
located thereon.) That would be about another
acre in that pond, maybe.
CHAIRMAN SMITHt So, approximately twenty-
six acres?
�. Yes, sir, that would be a reasonable number.

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i3ratton Commission -377-
CHAIRMAN SMITHY And as you extract up to
fifty million tons, would you anticipate that
acreage would double or triple or what?
A Oh, yes, I think -- well, I think it would, again,
as I said before, I believe the pit area would
probably be fifty acres.
Then you would have your additional plant
and spreading out area, and so forth.
CHAIRMAN SMITH: Possibly be seventy-five
acres, rougly?
A. Yes, sire Now, they --
CHAIRMAN SMITH: OUt of a hundred ninety-
f ive?
A Yes, sir.
CHAIRMAN SMITH: Total site of a hundred
ninety-five?
A Yes, air, and we had --
CHAIRMAN SMITH: Could you give me a little
clearer definition of what you mean by buffer
zone? Is that land just left alone which
belongs to whome and --
(Interposing) Well, I think that would have to
be qualified.
I don't know. I think the county, in

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Bratton Commission -378-
referring to buffer zones, say that instead of
saying they're undisturbed areas, they are buffers
which -- and if you wanted to build a berm within
that buffer, you could do so.
Now, just how -- whether we would be
allowed to build a berry in -- in a buffer against
the park, I don't know.
That hadn't been defined.
CHAIRMAN SMITH: Well, your intent of the
buffer zone is what?
A Sir?
CHAIRMAN SMITH: What is the purpose of
your buffer zone?
A. The purpose is to protect the adjoining property.
CHAIRMAN SMITH: From what?
A (No response)
CHAIRMAN SMITH: Noise? Sediment?
A. Ah --
CHAIRMAN SMITH: Visual protection or what?
A. Well, Dr. Smith, I don't know.
I know there are buffers specified in
county codes and so forth and just what they --
the purposes of those buffers is, I don't
know.

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Bratton Commission -379-
To keep from crowding, possibly, an
industrial area in next to a residential area,
and for what -- whether it's noise, lights, vision,
or just what, I don' t know.
In this case, the park, I guess it would
probably include all those elements you mentioned
in your question.
CHAIRMAN SMITH: any Y , further questions
gentlemen?
(No response)
CHAIRMAN SMITH: Thank you, Mr. Bratton.
We have none.
MR. KIMZEY: We have nothing.
MR. OAKLEY: Would it be possible for me to
ask him one other question?
CHAIRMAN SMITH: You agreeable, Mr.
Kimzey?
MR. KIMZEY: Yes, sir. I have no objec-
tion.
FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. OAKLEY:
QL Your -- the person who prepared your sedimentation
plan, Mr. John Edwards, did not really know the
F

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Bratton 'Further _Cross -380-
ramif ications of the future expansion.
The pit -- the present rectangular is
extremely close to the Crabtree Creek as it relates
to that particular map.
When your -- when your future expansion can you tell us the effect upon that part of the
site as it relates to the Crabtree Creek?
L You're referring to this --
(Interposing) Do you --
�. -- area in here? (indicating rectangle on map.)
¢ Do you intend, as you expand, do you intend to cut
down --
L (Interposing) Oh, no, I don't think --
Q. --- to the creek?
�. -- we will -- I don't believe we'd crowd the
creek any more than that map shows it.
Q. There is -- it's a rather steep slope down?
L Yes, it is true.
You don't intend to get into that?
�. No, I don't -- I don't think we would.
I don't think we would need to.
That is (looking at map) , I guess a hundred
feet -- about a hundred feet from the creek and
that is about as close as we try to get.

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Bratton Further Cross/Re-Redirect -381-
QL Thank you.
L These acreages we -- I was referring to, Dr.
Smith, are very general. I -- it's hard to say
just what -- exactly what will happen.
RE -REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. KIMZEY:
QE Obi that question, of course, that's not adjacent
to the park there, is it, Mr. Bratton?
A No, it's not. It's adjacent to the property in
this area. (indicating area on map.)
CHAIRMAN SMITH: Thank you, Mr. Bratton,
MR. KIMZEYt Thank you, Mr. Bratton.
(WITNESS EXCUSED.)
MR. KIMZEY: Mr. Chairman, that -- at this
time that will essentially complete our offer of
evidence on direct with the exception of some
exhibits Mr. Oakley and I, your hearing examiner,
Ms. French, have listed each -- the State and
Wake Stone have listed several exhibits that
have not been exactly identified.
I'm trying to identify additional exhibits
about which we don't have multiple copies.

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-382-- 1
We have agreed that those exhibits were to
go in to the record without further identification,
proving that they are authentic and would be an
offer of the exhibits on our list --
MS. FRENCH: One thin I want to stop. you
right here for.
The Commission members have decided that
they each need copies of Wake Stone's exhibits.
They are not going to be in the same
locality. Each of them has their own file, so
it will be necessary to get those,
MR. KIMZEY: I certainly -- I have copies
of all the exhibits except the booklets and the
maps and I will distribute those immediately
after tonight's recess or in the morning.
I'm sorry --
MS. FRENCH: (Interposing) Do you have a
package for each of the Commissioners?
MR. KIMZEY: essentially that package. I some of them were duplicates of the State's
exhibits, and I did not duplicate them thinking
that they had been duplicated, but since last
night -- or since your call yesterday, I have
duplicated all except the State's exhibits and

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-383-
the maps .and booklets.
I do not have copies for all of them of
those things?
MS. FRENCH: They will just need this
package to take with them.
MR. KIMZEY: I have one additional technical
problem.
Mr. Reed would like to have his map back.
That has been reproduced in Mr. Stephens' map in
a reduced form with another overlay on it.
If the Commission does not object, I would
like to substitute for the purposes of the
record, Mr. Stephens' duplication of Mr. Reed's m
and let him have his large map back.
MS. FRENCH: That will be fine.
MR. VAN MORN: Mr. Chairman, I wonder --
CHAIRMAN SMITH: Yes, sir.
MR. VAN HORN: --- if we could get a --
since the transcript may be sometime in coming to
us, I wonder if we could also get a duplicate of
the listing of the exhibits.
MS. FRENCH: That will come -- I assume,
Mr. Kimzey, that will come with bake Stone' s
exhibits?

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-384-
MR. VAN HORN: With hake Stone's exhibit
numbers?
MR. KIMZEY: I will have that done.
Do you want me to reduplicate the State's
exhibits that we have listed?
MS. FRENCH: Yes.
MR. KIMZEY: You do want that?
MS. FRENCH: Yes. They were getting a
little confused earlier about which number was.
They were turning to number 12 and it wasn't
there, or what you were referring to as number
120
MR. KIMZEY: Fine. If you will give me the
through the morning, I will leave that with my
office staff so they can prepare that, because
they are not prepared in that fashion.
But I will do that.
MS. FRENCH: (Interposing) Just so they --
just so long as they have them by tomorrow after-
noon to take with them.
MR. KIMZEY: I'm sorry. One other point
on the Wake Stone's offer of evidence.
There is an agreement between the counsel
and the hearing examiner for one witness to go on

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Colloquy - 3 8 5-
out of turn in the morning.
Other than that witness and the site visit,
which we have previously made motions about and
possible rebuttal evidence, we rest at this
time.
MS. FRENCH: That is your witness, isn't
it, Mr. Kimzey, tomorrow at nine o'clock (9:00)?
MR. KIMZEY: Yes.
MS. FRENCH: (To Commission) We have one
additional witness that we have agreed to call
at nine o'clock (9:00) in the morning because he
had problems.
(To Mr. Kimzey) Who is it? What is the
name?
MR. KIMZEY: Nis. Betty Ann Knudsen, a
Wake County Commissioner.
MR. RIGGS: What is the nature of her
testimony?
MR. KIMZEY: The nature of her testimony
is the objectives of the county and the desirabili
of the county government as to the development
of this site as a quarry.
MS. FRENCH: Mr. Oakley, if you're going to
start your case tonight, we're going to take a

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break.
Do you feel like we need to start your
case tonight, or should we reconvene in the
morning?
MR. RIGGS: No, no, no, Let's keep going*
MS. FRENCH: (to Commission) You'd like
to start it?
MR. RIGGS: The night's young yet.
MR. OAKLEY: I'd like to make a general
inquiry about the --the site visit -- the quarry
visit.
We would -- it's been discussed among the
Department that it would be good to go to those
active quarries sometime in the morning rather
than to wait too late to see it before we lose
the daylight hours, or active hours,
I don't believe there's an objection to
picking a particular time on that, say, sometime
before the -- before the lunch break.
MS. FRENCH: I think the only problem we-_
are going to have with that is that if we're
going to the quarry site at different times
during the day, we're breaking up the time of
getting back and forth and leaving or having

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Colloquy -387-
enough time to finish all the hearing.
MR. KIMZ LY: ter. Oakley asked about that,
We don't object to going in the morning if we
get through with our testimony, and go right as
soon as it's over, but I did not anticipate that
your inquiry meant that we would break up.
We will do -- we would object to interrupting
the witness -- the evidence to get to the quarry
site.
As long as we can leave here in enough
daylight hours to get there.
MS. FRENCH: I don't think that we would
allow breaking up testimony to go in the morning.
MR. OAKLEY: Okay, we, then, we'd like to
start with our testimony tonight unless everybody
is too tired to do it.
MS. FRE14CH : That's fine, except we'd like
to take a five -- a ten-minute break.
CHAIRMAN SMITH: We will take a ten-
minute break and then we will be pleased to
hear your testimony, sir. (to Mr. Oakley)
(BRIEF RECESS 8:40 - 8:50 P. M.)

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Colloquy -388-
CHAIRMAN SMITH: Mr. Oakley, would it be
well for the members of the Commission to dress for
field work tomorrow if possible?
MR. OAKLEY: I'm just not sure.
CHAIP14&1 SMITH: Okay, very good.
Resume. Call your witnesses, please.
MR. OAKLEY: We'd like to call Jim Simons,
Whereupon,
JAMES D . S IMONS ,
Having been first duly sworn,
was examined and testified as
follows:
DIRECT EXAMINTION BY MR. OAKLEY:
Q would you state your full .name and address?
�. James D. Simons. 3304 Parker Place in Raleigh.
Q What is your present occupation?
L Dining specialist for the Divisbn of Land Resourc
Department of Natural Resources and Community
Development.
Q What are your duties and responsibilities in that

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Simons Direct -389-
position?
�. I assist the section chief in coordinating the
field office activities related to mine reclama-
tion program, review applications for mining
permits, interagency coordination, enforcement
coordination, for violations of the Dining Act,
and drafting of mining permits.
Who do you report to?
A, I report to the Section Chief, Charles Gardner.
What was your previous work experience before
coming with the State?
L I was a geologist and associate soils engineer w3.t
Pittsburgh Testing Laboratory.
Q Have you also had occasion to work anywhere else?
Prior to that?
A. Prior to that I was a grade control engineer with
Kerr -McGhee Nuclear Fuels in New Mexico.
What is your general educational background?
A. I have a B. S. degree in geology from the Universi
of North Carolin a at Chapel Hill, and subsequent
training in civil engineering and mining engi-
neering.
4 And are you a member of any professional associa-
tions?

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Simons Direct -390-
A. I'm a -.,Lterdber of t1lia Society of Mining Engineers
�i,).erican Insit-itute of Mining and Met
and also the
J- 4
.`-,--ita3.na-erinq Geologists*
V (D -L:. Ti the State?
yea-s.
-,u
D ,.z occasion to visit
V i C:;
Y
f -o, :-,---ve- aiiy specific st-one quarry experience?
I and inspected
stone c.,uiarrvP and reviewed numerous
4 a
-c- Itly permitted in this
rnd and two, crushed
r:. Il 01 t -iguished from ind-as-
S Z
3 L
tr 111 'C r a 1 cra r 1 c-i
u vs2-ll of tYn-lly i.".aheri
.`.-sr en all of them.
dyl-i-a-1-nic figure, the mines
:�!-Z,-- sed a-L-I(.'A' _--ernt itted every year.
-Z) u Are I 11;avc- -saaa well over a hundred

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S imo n s
Q.
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Direct -391-
during that period of time.
Have -, 7--Ou ha.01 rerjulatory responsibilities over any
the Piedurion,11---?
01.z sor-ze- of are in the area?
o11 1,7 1 ---�nightdale quarry,
4
a s, Carn.-, '--larry, two ITello Teer
_j 4., y and Crabtree quarry.
Ita-L f-T U,�! -Cr
,
ay. ,To j Vi--zit-c-d SoTr.o or all of those?
- It
I v,:, all of those.
Are f-,amili-ar issues involved in t1iis
Y a
2,-- i- f is a, 11 v o ar,.--% you I i ar with the mining
4--or Stone?
Y
Ak.'. -.rc)u first 'Familiar wit-ri that?
Brat-1--on and "nis consultant,, Dr.
o discuss the appli-
of-et %AtI.i us in !,"kar(-,*.-i t
C a t i r-) I -I,
vaar?
Yes, si--@
D i I--" you :-.ical-:c a site in-ves-IC-igation at that time?
.Berea{ ter.

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Direct
-392- 1
Q, Could you give us a general description of your
site visit.
Can you use that map, if you'd like. I think
everybody is familiar with it now, like to gen-
erally show where you went?
A. Okay. (going to map posted on writing board.)
On the first inspection?
(Nods of f irmatively )
A. There is an existing access road coming in from --
off the State road -- I guess it's 1790, but a
private unpaved road in fair condition that
follows the ridge and comes down to, I guess,
about right here.
I believe the first time we came, we came
down the road, was given a short walk, got out
and walked over to the quarry portion, down back
in the valley, back up, and saw the place for the
stockpile area, and perhaps walked some over
toward -- didn't quite get to the lakes at, that
time, but mostly saw the proposed quarry site
and the plant area.
What were your initial impressions? At that
time?
A. It was rather steep topography for this part of

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Simons Direct -393-
the State.
It was perhaps the main thing at that
time.
What would be the significance of that?
1, Well, it would make the area •-- of course, the
run-off velocity of rainfall higher; it would
make the run-off -- the erosion rate more signi-
ficant, and also make the site more difficult to
control the erosion and off -site sedimentation.
Did you have any other initial concerns that
impressed you upon your first visit?
A, Yes, proximity to the park.
Were you able to approach Crabtree Creels during
the investigation?
�. Not during the f irst site inspection.
We may have seen Crabtree Creek, but I
believe we saw it in this area (indicating) which
wasn't adjacent.
What would be the next step in your review pro-
cess?
A. An application was submitted, I believe shortly
thereafter, and followed by another site
inspection.
And there was some discussion with the

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Simons Direct -394-
mine operator and his consultant on erosion
control and blasting, buffer zone area.
And after the initial application was sub
witted, we did have some questions and contacted
the operator for additional information.
(DEPARTMENT'S EXHIBIT 5,
MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION,)
(Mr. Oakley) Like to hand you what has been
marked Department's exhibit number 5 and ask you
if you recognize that?
A. (looking at document) Yes.
¢ Is this -- what is -- does this letter represent?
A. This was our first request for additional infor-
mation from the mine operator, requested more
information on the proposed quarry excavation,
blasting, control information, erosion control,
buffer zone areas, one clarification :on how
contaminants would be disposed of. .
And barriers along the upper edge of the
high wall.
That's pretty much it.
Looking if you will at page two at
what is pointed out as number 6, paragraph number
6, could you tell us what that concerns?

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Simons Direct --395-
L That concerns the erosion control particularly in
the area of the quarry excavation.
Q; And explain, if you will, what --- what you were
seeking from Mr. Bratton by writing this
letter?
A If I may refer to the plan --
Yes., sir.
L (looking at topographic with drawings for mine
installations.) The quarry excavation is across
from the plant area separated by a fairly steep
ravine. The draw does have --- I don't know if
it's I feel you could probably call it a
permanent stream even though at times I'm sure
it's very low, stream of water.
The initial mine excavation at that time
appeared to start right at the bottom of the ravir,
in the stream area and work itself -- its way
up.
we were ingdring about how that off -Bite
sedimentation would be protected or would be
prevented during the initial quarry disturbance,
¢ Did you receive a -- did you receive a response
from Mr. Bratton to your April loth letter?
A. Yes, we did.

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Simons Direct - 39 6--
Did you continue the discussions with him con-
cerning some of the aspects of the quarry during
April?
�. Yes, we were in contact fairly -- fairly regularly,
I suppose. Or at least several times during that
period.
(Interposing) During the -- during the initial
review process, did you have occasion to solicit
comments from other State agencies?
A. Yes.
Specifically with regard to this particular per -
Mitt., what -- ghat other agencies did you contact?
What were you seeking?
A. Well, we contacted Wildlife Resources Commission
concerning the effect of noise or the quarry dis-
turbance, land clearing activill.-ies on a -- on
wildlife resources in the adjacent periods, con-
tacted the Diviabn of Environmental Management
concerning the water and air quality permits that
would be required for a quarry, and certainly we
contacted Parks and Recreation Division for
cortunents on the possible impact to the park.
Are you -- you're familiar with the terms of
the denial letter from the Director to Make Stone

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Simons
A.
A.
OL
A.
4
Direct
--39?-
Quarry?
Yeso
Were you able to -- when approximately were you
able to identify the six concerns that led to that
denial?
(No response)
Is there an approximate time frame?
The -- about the period around July of our --
our investigation had come to such a point that
our concerns were starting to focus primarily --
you know -- just about solely on the park at that
time.
And were you able to satisfy yourself with respect
to certain other aspects of the proposed park?
Yes, we were.
Were those aspects discussed with the Wake Stone
representatives?
Yes.
What was the result of your negotiations or dis-
cussions concerning things other than the six
factors that have been identified and the effect
on the park?
If I may offer just a brief explanation of what
those concerns were, as with any mining operation

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Simons Direct -39 8-
we are concerned with public safety,
In addition to the effects on the park we'd
be concerned with public safety, the ground water
dewatering, off --site blasting vibrations or other
effects of blasting and we discussed
these things with the mine operator ind,.in his
application and subsequent duscussions with him,
he indicated that measures -- measures that could
be taken to prevent this hazard or adverse
effect.
Without belaboring the point then, there were some
aspects other than what we're discussing here
today that you looked at?
L Most certainly.
4 Generally when you review a proposed quarry, what
types of environmental effects would you be
looking at?
�. Public safety with, mine excavation coming too
close to an adjacent property line or with an
adjacent residential area, or a highway, or a
cavein --- subsequent cave-in of the property --
adjacent property, blasting, fly rock, air
blasts, ground vibrations related to blasting.
And does this particular quarry pose -- did this

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Simons Direct -399-
particular quarry pose any special considerations
to you?
�. The special consideration is the park, --
(Interposing) Have you had occasion --
A. --- as well as the steep topography -- relatively
steep topography.
Have you had occasion to review any other
mining applications in which an effect on the
park would be --- would have been -- in which an
adverse effect on the park would have been a
consideration?
L No, this is a first application with this close
proximity to a park.
¢ And have you --- did you have occasion to discuss
with other people in your section, particularly
your superiors, the particular concern that you
had with the park?
A. Yes.
Have you occasion to visit the William Ho
Umstead State Park yourself?
A. Yes
¢ When did you first go out there?
A. You mean related to this case?
9 Yes

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Simons Direct -400-
�. I guess very shortly, probably in -- in March or
very shortly after we -- after the application was
submitted.
And to -- for what purpose did you visit the park
at that time?
A. Initial -- on the initial inspection just to get
more or less a feel of that -- of that section of
the park, its general use, its topography, that
type activities centered around that part of the
park.
¢ Did you also have correspondence with or dis-
cussions with the Division of Parks and Recreation
relating to the park and park plans?
A. Yes.
¢ Row specifically did you go about that?
A. Well, we contacted the officials for Parks and
Recrea -- Personnel of Parks and Recreation and
they showed us maps of the existing facilities,
what was planned in the near future, what would be
likely to be planned in the long-range plans for
the park and I have made several site inspections
with the park officials.
¢ Taking the -- I take it that you still have some
concerns with the issuance of this particular

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Direct
— i V i
permit.
A. (Nods affirmatively)
WoUld those be the ones that we've identified
earlier?
In other words, blasting, vibrations, sedi-
mentation, traffic, the decibels?
A Yes.
These are still of concern to you, is that correct?
A. Yes.
¢ Taking each --- trying to take each one of those
individually, would you tell us your personal
observations relating to visibility of the pro-
posed quarry as it relates to the William Be
Umstead Park?
A. Well, divide that into two parts, actual site
inspection as well as just looking on topo plans
or on site plans, there's concern about the
elevation of the stockpile areas, or the elevation
of the general plant area being higher in rela-
tion to adjoining areas of the park, and the fact
that there were, what I thought were a good
percentage of the trees in the area, were hard-
woods and grow -- throughout the review period
t
the leaves have been more or less on the trees.

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Simons Direct -402-
I've tried to visualize seeing through
the area without the leaves and in fact in some
areas ycu can stand in the general stockpile area
and look across the valley, look through the
canopy across the valley to see what I assume
must be the park, wooded areas in the park.
¢ Did you also do some topographical examinations?
A. Yes, I drew some very rough cross sections and
also just looking at the plan view or the topo-
graphic maps.
¢ Did you at this -- did you also discuss this aspect
of your -- of your review with your superiors?
A Yes.
¢ You say there was a general agreement among --
among -- relating to the concerns that you were
having?
MR. KIMZEY: Objection,
MS. FRENCH: Grounds?
MR. KIMZEY: Pure hearsay as to ghat other
people agree. They're here and they can testify,
his superiors.
MS. FRENCH: Sustained.
¢ (Mr. Oakley) Do you make any other personal
observations about the visual effects of this

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Direct
-403-
particular park?
A. I don ° t really know -- knout how to answer that.
I have already said that -- you know ---
examination on a topographic map shows that the
stockpile areas and the plant areas is on a
higher elevation with respect to the adjoining
areas of the park, and the clearing of the stock-
pile areas would naturally really increase visi-
bility, and the unknown extent of the quarry
expansion and subsequent clearing could increase
visibility.
Q, Would you relate to us your -- you are aware
then that an air quality permit has been issued
for this site?
A. Yes.
Can you tell us generally what -- what effect that
would have on the permit issuing process as far
as the mining permit?
A. Well, the mining permit would require that all
applicable air and water permits be issued, or
be -- at least be approvable.
What type of control is the applicant planning
to use for the control of dust at this site?
A. I understand, as has been stated before, sprays

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Simons
Direct -404-
on the -- their crushing equipment, screens,
watering trucks, and also, I think the permit
indicates that the drill holes will be watered.
Is the approach that they are taking generally
consistent with requirements of other quarries?
A.
Yes.
4
Then your basic -- your basic concern with the
dusting problems must be related to something
else, is that correct?
�.
well, there are dust sources that are not addressed,
either not addressed in the permit or pretty
much beyond the operators control.
And what sources would that be?
well, a dust source beyond the operator's con-
trol would be blasting dust or dust created by the
design blast.
Have you had occasion to blast at -- in your
work experience?
A
Yes, many times.
Would it be your opinion that uncontrollable
dust from the blasts would be able to carry
into the park?
MR. KIMZKY: Objection.
MS. FRENCH: Ground 87

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Simons
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MR. KIMZEY: Purely leading. I don't think
he can -- he can ask him what his opinion is,
but he's stating his opinion for him, the beet I
can tell.
MR. OAKLEY: I"m just trying to relate
it to the park.
MR. KIMZEY: I still think he ought not
to ask him directly.
MS. FRENCH: Overruled. You may answer,
Mr. Simons.
A.
If the wind, weather conditions from the draw,
and the wind was blowing in that direction, this
in my opinion dust could be carried off site into
the park area.
Q.
(Mr. Oakley) Have you had occasion to familiarize
yourself with prevailing winds in the area?
A
Yes.
How did you go about that?
A.
Contacted the weather service at the airport.
Q,
And what were you able to determine about the
direction of prevailing _ winds?
L
Throughout a good portion of the year, the pre-
vailing winds are from the southwest which would
be blowing from the general quarry area into

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A.
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I9
Direct
-406--
the park area.
Did you also have occasbn to review the blasting
aspects of this permit application?
Yes.
What were your general concerns? What would you
be looking at with regards to blasting?
Would be basically three things: ground vibrations,
carried off site from the blast, the air blast, ai
over pressure, and fly rock.
You had discussions with Make Stone representa-
tives regarding the level of blasting vibrations
et cetera, is that correct?
Yes.
You in general agreement with the way that the
blasting is to take place, is that correct?
Yes.
Do you still have som a concernsg about uncontrollable
aspects of blasting?
Concerns with blasting would be, at this particula
site, pretty much limited to the noise made by
the drilling of the -- drilling of the blast holes,
and the blast -- and the dust from the blasts,
considered overall.
And, well, in addi -- an additional fact

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Simons Direct -407-
would be the noise from the blast and -- and
in the park area.
Q6 And could you expand on that a little bit?
Well, the noise, of course, would depend on
the distance., -At considerable distance the
noise would be as described previously, something
like dull thunder.
At a closer distance, it would be more
alarming.
The -- a lot of that depends on atmospheric
conditions.
You also had occasion to take into consideration
ffic with respect to this proposed park?
�!. Yes.
In what manner did you acquaint Yourself with this
particular aspect?
A. With noise from the highway haul trucks, which
would be approaching the intersection of Harrison
Avenue and State Road 1790, from the quarry,
and also just the general impact of -- of
focusing truck traffic within three hundred
feet of the entrance . to the State Park.
Were you able to determine a level of traffic --
truck traffic?
at p

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Simons Direct -408-
A. For the -- the applicant has said forty trucks
out during peak hours which -- I mean forty, so
if you double that, assuming that the same number
of trucks would be going in, would be about eighty
trucks per hour during peak hours according to the
applicant.
Would that be generally consistent with your
knowledge of other quarries?
A. Well, that would be at a peak -- at a peak would
be as fast as they could clear the scale house.
Did you have occasion to discuss your concerns
about traffic with other people in the Section?
A. Yes, certainly I discussed it with the Section and
with the Parks people.
What was the nature of your discussion with the
Parks and Recreation?
A. Well, they were also concerned.
MR. KIMZEY: (Interposing) object to what
they were.
A. Park --
MS. FRENCH: Could you be more specific,
Mr. Simons?
THE WITNESS: Pardon rite?
MS. FRENCH: Would you be a little more

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Direct
specific?
THE WITNESS: Name names?
-409-
MS. FRENCH: Yes.
THE WITNESS: Okay.
Discussions with Alan Bakes and Rick Hazard.
They were concerned with --
MR. KIMZEY: (Interposing) object to what
they were concerned with. They're here. They
can testify.
That's hearsay.
MR. OAKLEY: We're talking about --
MS. FRENCH: (Interposing) Overruled. You
can go ahead and answer, Mr. Simons.,
L The discussion centered on possible safety
hazards to people entering or the park users
rising that entrances noise from the trucks;
just general visual impact of having a fairly
congested intersection with trucks and truck
traffic with possible rocks falling off the back
and general dusty conditions as sometimes found at
intersections where heavy haul trucks are
used.
Were you able to satisfy yourself with any --
with respect to any of those concerns that they

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Simons Direct -410-
Mould not pan out to be of particular concern?
A. The Department of Transportation has indicated to
us that no -- no apparent safety hazard at the
intersection.
Did the Department of Transportation make any other
conclusions with regard to the volume of traffic?
�. I'm not sure I know how to answer that.
They -- the Department of Transportation
indicated that if necessary, the intersection
could be modified,
Did*you make any -- take any data or make any
sparements, if you will, regarding the noise level
of trucks as they enter and leave the quarry?
�• We took sound level rea ngs of trucks at other
areas. Naturally there are not trucks using this
intersection -- this particular intersection now
since there's no'. activity there,
tie took truck readings at other areas, and
also consulted planning and development section
of the Department of Transporation for assistance
in evaluating a line,or what you call a line source
of noise, for a given number of trucks using the
roadway, what that possible -- you know -- noise
impact would be.

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Simons Direct -411-
OL Did you have occasion to discuss with or have your
noise data reviewed by Kimley-Horn Associates?
A. Yes.
�► Do you remember -- can you recall the -- the level
of noise, the dB(A) figures that you used in con-
sidering the truck traffic?
A. Considering the highway truck traffic noise?
a (Nods affirmatively)
A. Well, the peak would be accelerating on an incline,
and there is broad -- a pretty good range in there
depending on whether it's a ten -ton or a twenty --
ton truck, in the neighborhood of seventy decibels
A weighted to -- on up to ninety-five.
Q. And --
A At the peak -- fifty feet from the -- from the
center line of sound.
Ar eyou generally familiar with the use of trucks
at quarries?
A. Yes.
Qt Can you describe the general use and appearance of
those trucks?
Ay You're speaking of highway trucks used to haul
stone --
(Nods affirmatively.)

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Simons Direct -412-
A -- away from the site?
a Right.
A The vast majority of them are single or double
tandem, rear dump trucks capable of carrying some-
where between ten and twenty tons.
And can you describe -- have youheard these
trucks?
A Yes,
OL Can you describe for us the sound?
A I think I'm having the same difficulty as the
last time that question was asked.
If you're standing nearJt, it's loud.
If the engine is in gear, gear noise,
acceleration noise, it falls back somewhat with
the change of each gear, finally levels off at a
constant rate of motion.
4 Have you been able to satisfy yourself -- let me
strike that.
You also had occasion to visit the entrance
to the Reedy Creek -- the Reedy Creek entrance to
the Park?
A. Yes.
OL You may use the map if you need to.
Can you tell us the distances that are

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Simons Direct -413-
involved between the park entrance and the entrance
to the proposed quarry?
A I don't believe the map up there would show it,
but from the intersection of 1790 which is the
State road that leads into the entrance of the
quarry, bothe entrance of the park is approximately
two hundred eighty to three hundred feet.
I've seen both figures and I haven't
personally measured it, except it measures fairly
close to three hundred feet on a topo map.
¢ Have you taken any noise measurements at the parking
lot picnic area up Reedy Creek yourself?
A Yes.
4 Do you lave those figures?
L I don't think I have those figures, but I think
I remember thew.
Q. Did you have occasion to visit the Reedy Creek
picnic area on May 1, 1980?
L Yes.
OL What -- tell us what you did at that particular
time.
41 Well, we set up the sound level meters at several
places within the immediate area where you would
drive into the park, set up at the parking bt,

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Simons Direct -414-
the corner of the parking lot nearest the entrance.
We also set up at the entrance, set up at
the far corner of the parking lot, set up in the
picnic -- within the picnic area itself, a couple
hundred feet from the parking lot.
And we also set up at the --- well, Atos
not in the park, but we set up at the intersection
of S. R. 1790 and Harrison Avenue.
And when you say "set ups', ghat do you mean?
A. Well, we set up a sound level meter. It fits on
a tripod, and you take a reading every ten seconds
over a given period of time, usually fifteen
minutes and average the levels together to give a -
what's known as equivalent sound levels.
For what purpose were you taping these measure-
ments?
�. We wanted to get an idea of how quiet or how
noisy it was in the park as it exists now.
Q. And your figure -- were you able to determine
an Leq figure at the Reedy Creek picnic area?
L The figure we were able to determine is around
forty-five.
However, we were taking the limits on the
instrument. We were using a similar instrument

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Simons Direct -415-
as has been described before, I guess, a type
2. But in any event it would only read down
to thirty-five, and when it fell below forty,
I just marked it as forty and used that in my
calculations.
I know that it's forty-five that -- it
averages forty-five or less.
¢ So the purpose at that time was to determine for
yourself aniambient level?
A Right.
4 Did you have any concerns -- other concern relating
to noise at the proposed quarry other than the
truck traffic?
L Why, yes, actually our main concern was the heavy
equipment of the quarry operation itself.
4 When was noise identified as a concern?
A. If I may refer to my chronology. (looking at
notes) Pretty early. In fact, "...requested from
Wake Stone additional noise information in May."
So, I'd say early Alay if not late April.
Q► Okay, and what steps did you take initially to
acquaint yourself with these -- with the noise
situation?
L Well, as I mentioned before, we did take sound

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Direct -416-
level readings at the park.
We took readings of various pieces of
equipment at the Nello Teer Moncure Quarry -- _
mean, excuse me -- Wake Stone Moncure Quarry, and
also at the Nello Teer Crabtree Quarry.
And what was your intent?
Wanted to get an idea or try to quantify just how
much noise a quarry would make.
How di dyou -- how did you decide on the approach
that you would take?
Well, consulted with planning development section
who handles -- routinely handles traffic noise
for. -the Department of Transpotation and explained
to them our problem and they recommended a general
approach for getting the first order of approxi-
mation.
And what was that approach?
The approach was to measure or assign a value --
noise value to the various pieces of equipment
at a given point and then attenuate the noise
reduction with distances to the spot within the
park or wherever your point of concern would be,
and then add the noise levels together from the
various equipment sources.

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And --
(Interposing) And plugged -it with the ambient.
the measures that you've taken, I believe,
were earlier testified to by Mr. Leonard of
Kimley-Horn.
Did they have occasion to review the levels
that you came up with?
Yes, they did.
Did they have a -- were they in general agree-
ment with the approach you had taken?
Yes, I believe they did.
Can you tell us the measurements you took at the
Moncure Quarry?
At fifty feet from the primary crusher, we got
a eighty-seven decibel A weighted reading of
eight-- well, eighty-seven; secndary crushers,
slightly less at fifty feet, eighty-five; an air
drill at fifty feet, that was eighty-seven; what
I call a pit haul truck, or the large trucks
used to convey the rock from the pit itself to
the crusher at seventy; a front-end loader at
seventy.
Can you describe the sound that you heard?

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simons Direct .418-
A. Kind of a mixture of a roar and a rattle, a little
bit of engine reving thrown in, an occasional
backup warning beeper from equipment.
You say that the noise noise that you heard in
acquainting yourself with the noise, the noise that
you heard at the Moncure Quarry, would that be
consistent with the types of noises that you would
hear at other quarries you visited?
�. Yes.
4 Did you have occasion to discuss your noise
calculations and types of noise with personnel from
Parks and Recreation?
�. I chid. In fact, personnel from Parks and Recrea-
tion assisted in the data taking to some
extent.
Did they relate to you any figure -- any particular
significance to a particular dB(A) or and Ldn or
a Leq.. level 'so far as the parks was concerned?
L Well, the only standard , -- or it's not really
a standard.
The only noise level they had dealth with
previously was with relationships to the airport.
And in that, a fifty-five Ldn as previously
testified as a day and night weighted scale.As
used when there is Federal monies involved to

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Simons Direct -•419-
distinguish what they call 'taking of the land'
with relation to park areas.
Q. And the figures that you had earlier discussed, the
figure that you were in agreement with Kimley-
Horn, how does that relate to that fifty-five
Ldn?
L Well, the Ldn scale as has been mentioned before,
is weighted with a ten decibel penalty assigned
for nighttime or, I think ten p.m. to seven a.m.
and then areraged out.
Wdve been dealing here with daytime noise,
presumably the quarry wouldn't be operating at
night, wouldn't be a noise source at night.
So the average sound levels or the Leq's
4r you know -- equate somewhat.
And what's -- what is your understanding of what
the Leq measures?
A. Leq is an aver4ng, and within this averaging
of say fifty-five, you may get some eighty
some seventy or whatever and a corresponding period
of low''s in between, and which is fine for -- I
guess it's about the only way you can measure it,
or scale an intermittent type noise -- noise
levels.

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Simons Direct -424-
But we want, far into our investigation,
before we question the appropriateness of using
level equivalent sound levels for relating
this to the use of the recreation area.
Q. Have you also had occasion to, in acquainting
yourself with the noise aspect, to visit other
active quarries other than the Monc7ure Quarry?.
�. Yes, the Crabtree Quarry in particular.
OL Have you visited any others besides that?
A. Well, Vulcan Materials Stone Quarry in Stoneville,
North Carolina.
I have probably seen -other quarries since
this case has been under review, but those in
particular with relation to noise.
Can you relate to us the similarity between those
quarries? The types of equipment, the process,
how they operate?
The process of a -- of quarrying stone is pretty
much similar across the State.
Now, there are larger and smaller plants, but
the process is very simil&r and the general
scale of the site I visited are pretty much
similar.
Would they be similar -- what types of equipment

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Simons Direct -421-
would be involved?
�. Well, the crusher, secondary and tertiary crush-
ers, certainly the pit haul trucks, air drills,
f ront end loaders
These would all be similar to the proposed Wake
Stone quarry?
�. Mr. Bratton has just indicated that there is
apparently new technology and new (,,-equipment,
quieter equipment available, but of the existing
quarries that I have seen, this is similar.
Q, Were you able to listen to the various sounds
yourself, associated with the Moncure Quarry and tl
Crabtree Quarry?
L Yes e
QL How did -- how did you go about this?
A. Well, we measured sound levels from fifty feet,
from the various pieces of equipment at both
� p � P
quarries, and there the didn't read exactly the
q � y
same and you wouldn't expect them to read
exactly the same.
But it's only a first order of approxima-
tion and they fell within a range at one time,
one -- some readings gave a louder reading at
Crabtree, than.at Moncure, and other readings the

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reverse was true.
But it all fell within the range of my
assumed values for noise.
Well, it wasn't assumed. I took one
measured value which I felt was pretty typical
of eighty-seven and eighty-five.
OL Would you repeat that?
A. Well, eighty-seven for the crusher and eighty-five
dB(A), and others, too.
OL Have you had occasion at the Crabtree Quarry
to acquaint yourself with the factors of attenua-
tion? Of how the noise would diminish as you
moved away?
L Yes.
Q. Describe for us how -- how ,you acquainted your-
self with that particular aspect.
L Well, we backed off varying distances from the
-- from the quarry and read weighted sound
level readings at various distances from the
Crabtree Quarry.
4 Can you describe the sounds at the Crabtree Quarry
MR. KIMZEY: Objection as to relevance.
It's repetitive.
MS. FRENCH: Overruled.

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Well, it's very similar to the Moncure Quarry and
to other quarries..
It's -- when the crusher is sort of a
combination rattle and roar. If big trucks come
in on the incline and rev their engines to raise
the rear of the truck to dump the rocks.
In using -- in using the sound level meter,
were you able to at the Crabtree Quarry investiga-
tion, as you moved away, entice what the readings
were at any particular distance?
Yes, at six hundred feet there was -- I didn't
write that down -- but seventy-three as I remember
it at six hundred feet.
At fifteen hundred feet, was sixty -- I'd
have -- I' d have to look at my notes.,
I believe it'd sixty-three.
Were you able to, while you were using the sound
level meter, move away from the Crabtree Quarry
and note on the meter when this approached
the fifty-five decibel level?
Not at Crabtree Quarry.
Have you also r attbimpted" to` make go rse]; :- .liar
with the various .sound ;levels associated with the
Yes.
How do or did you do that?
ark?

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Simons Direct -424-
L Well, from the site visitation.
OL Can you describe those sounds?
IA Well, the general wooded sounds, wind rustling,
through the trees. When I was out there, the
Katydids were very much in evidence. And you hear
an intermittent airplane noise, primarily private
aircraft in the section of the park I was in.
And some parts of the park you may hear some
heavy truck traffic on I-40,
4� Okay, then you have undertaken to acquaint your-
self personally with the sound levels associated
with active quarries, particularly the Crabtree
Quarry?
L Yes, Tyr. Oakley, for the record, I did take one
fifty-five rearing at the Crabtree Quarry, but
it want during -- this was subsequent to the
denial and not during the period, but I
have read -- backed off and read a fifty-five
Leq, or dB(A) reading at the Crabtree Quarry.
And --
L Across the road and through the woods.
Q. Can you approximate the distance you were from the
quarry?
A Yes, it's about fifteen hundred feet from the

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Simons Direct -425-
plant area of the quarry.
From your personal acquaintance with the noise
associated with quarries, and your personal
acquaintance with the noise associated with the
park, can you relate for us the -- how you would --
what you would see the relationship between the tut
to be?
L We ---
SIR. KIMSEY t . I object if I understand the
question he's asking is about the Crabtree noise
on the park in relationship between the two.
I believe the question is the proposed
site noise, if I understood the question right.
MR. OAKLEY: I'll be glad to change it
to the proposed site noise.
MS. FRENCH: Could you rephrase the questii
please?
QL (Mr. Oakley) Can you relate the sounds from your
personal perception between what you have heard
at an active quarry and how that would affect you
in using the park?
x At the --- the noise at which -- at which level?
Q, Take the fifty-five decibels?
x Well, a fifty-five decibel reading from a
•

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Simons
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Direc t.
-426-- 1
quarry noise or a construction -related noise?
I would consider loud, but that is one thing
that Leq doesn't tell you.
It doesn't address the duality of the noise.
The Epatydids can run the sound level meter
on up -- you know -- to fifty five, but a fifty--
five reading from a -- or even a considerably lows
reaming of a quarry noise or an unwanted sound
which is defined as noise, is --- I would consider
loud and I feel that most people would consider
loud.
Have you had occasion to discuss your concerns
along these lines with other people in your -
section?
Yes.
Do you know whether they have made similar efforts
to acquaint themselves with. the types of noise,
the distances involved and the levels involved?
Yes, they have.
Were you able to determine any other way that you
could acquaint yourself with trying to deal with
this noise issue?
None other than measuring levels, measuring
sound at various levels.

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Simons Direct -427-
And empirical calculating, that's the only
way I would know how to do it.
Moving from noise, did you also have occasion
to review the applicant's submittal of an
erosion control plan?
L Yes,
Q. Can you describe that generally -- not -- I think
we're generally fc-miliar with it.
Could you give us just the general back-
ground of how they plan to control sediment?
L We kind of divided it into two phases.
The most typical -- the initial phase
Mould be the construction of the access roads into
it, which of course would be a land disturbing
activity in some places, on relatively steep..
topography and they propose to control that
run-off by a combination of diversion ditches
and brush barriers.
The construction of the sediment basin
would be the first -- the first big erosion con-
trol work done, and -- and would be the
permanent measure when completed.
QL Do you have any concerns with respect to their
ability to control the sediment?

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Simons Direct -428--
A. I would consider control of erosion at the site
difficult for several reasons.
First of all, it's classified in the Take
County soil survey as predominantly Appling
series soils which are sandy or gravelly loam
soils, and on the grades typical of the side
slops and ridges out there, would be considered
highly erodible.
So, the soils are erodible, highly erodible,
topography is fairly steep.
The erosion control plan calls for a
relatively high degree of diligence in installing
the plan and maintaining it to be effective.
if it's -- it's not installed, you know,
in accordance to the specifi.c:ations of good practice
or during the initial phases of nstruction,
if I may point to the map --
MR. ONKLEY : Unh-hunh .
(Witness goes to map posted on writing board.)
A. The key to the sediment control plan centOrs
around this sediment basin herd which the
Commission and others can see is fairly close
to the stream; to Crabtree Creek.
And it is also m in --stream basin. It's --

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Simons
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2
As there was some mention before, it's a small
3
stream, from a feeder stream feeding that.
4
So the construction of this basin itself
5
is at least a temporary erosion control problem,
6
maintaining since this will be a permanent mea-
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sure, couldn't possibly --- or not likely in that
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particularly narrow valley to design a basin large
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enough to handle the sediment for a fifty-year
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life.
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So it would require maintenance of dipping
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out periodically.
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So, you know, it's -- it is not something
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that can be installed and forgotten about.
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So, likewise brush barriersar6 somewhat
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temporary measures meaning that the brush will
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eventually rot away, et cetera, within a year
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or so.
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So, my concerns are basically during the
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installation or the early phases of a quarry,
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it's really the critical time in quarry develop--
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Once you've got the pit sunk in the groundan(
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had the stockpile and everything covered with
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gravel, the concern is much legs. But during

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Direct -430-
the initial pit opening and moving the overburden
around, you don't have much gravel to play around
with and you don't have your basins completed,
it's a very critical time.
And unfortunately the quarry happens to
fall in the steepest area, a fairly narrow ridge, w
Crabtree Creek on the back side and a small stream
leading directly into -- on a fairly ste$ grade --
into Crabtree Creek on the other side.
And they have to be working either in or
adjacent to this feeder stream and that will be
critical until this smaller basin and
larger basin is installed and is fully functional.
Plus, an in -stream sediment basin creates
somewhat of a problem during low flow, You can
get a period of time when you have a continuing
-- you could have a continuous turbid discharge;
the impact of that turbid discharge I'm not
prepared -- on the creek, I'm not prepared to
say,
it is a fairly small feeder stream that
feeds the lake.
But our concerns center primarily around
the initial phases of the site development.
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Simons Direct -4 31-
4 Your concerns relate more to the aspects of the
site rather than the sufficiency of that plan?
A. Yes, it is a difficult site.
¢ How does that relate to the -- how does the
sedimentation problem relate to the park?
A. Well, the creek is the common boundary of the park
through this stretch here, at some point -- I'm
-not sure if it's here or some point northeast
of here.
The creek flows through the park. The park
here bounds the creek on both sides. The creek
is a major feature of the park in that particular
area, not to mention an impact on whatever --
on wildlife and whatever in the stream; just the
aesthetic qualities of the stream is a value to
the park, is something to be considered.
Q. What -- what size is Crabtree Creek in that
location?
A, I couldn't give you the flow in cubic feet per
seconds.
But I'd say the normal flow from the edge
of the water to edge of, water, oh, it's probably
twenty-five feet or so in here. From top of bank
to top of bank may be as much as eighty feet.

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From --
I'd say eighty feet.
Eighty feet?
Probably.
From the top of the stream bank on one side to
the top of the stream bank on the other side?
Yes .
Are you familiar with the principles of mine
reclamation?
Yes.
How -- did you -- you were here earlier when Mr.
Bratton testified as to the possibility of using
this particular site or reclaiming this particular
site by making it into a lake and deeding it
to the State, were you not?
Yes.
Do you have any comment on the feasibility
of that type of reclamation?
Well, as far as the creation of a pool or
reservoir for the park, it is really the main
option, in fact it would be likely you'd have to
pump it or otherwise take other measures to keep
it dry.
So, the quarries will naturally fill up,

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Simons Direct --433-
any quarry below -- any quarry excavated below
ground water level is naturally going to fill up
with water.
And that's a common problem that's a part
of reclamation.
With your knowledge of that kind of reclamation
activity, do you feel it would be advantageous
for the State to accept a deed transfer as part
of the reclamation plan?
�. That would depend a good bit on the conditbn of
how this pool is left.
I've seen numerous abandoned mines that
you'd classify as attractive nuisances and
dangerous, and in fact would be a liability to the
owner.
And if that were the case, it: certainly
would not be advantageous for the State to
take that over.
Do you have any knowledge or do you have an
estimate of how deep the pit would be when it
would be filled up?
Oh, that's sort of hard to say. As I said,
assuming that the ground pit would fill up to a
level somewhat similar to the feeder stream, and

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Simons Direct -434-
assuming they were going down a hundred feet, gosh
I don't know. It would be -- it could be twenty
or thirty feet of water at its deepest, once it's
filled, I guess.
$ The level of water then would -- is there a way
to estimate the level of water and the free board,;
if you will, the wall itself, the remaining part
of the quarry that will not fill up?
A. In this part of the country, the ground water
table is, you know, some distance below ground
level.
And that distance would be high wall -- it
would -- it could vary on the, if I may approach
the exhibit, assuming that just -- just assuming
the quarry for a minute, assuming the quarry was
just limited to this rectangular area and they
start in from the inward side going toward the
Crabtree Creek, naturally, it wcdd be a high wall
on this side, and perhaps not much of a high wall
on this side. (indicating on map posted on writing
board.)
A high -- it would be very difficult to
tell how much of one. I would assume twenty feet
or more at least.

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Simons Direct -435-
QQ It would depend on how far they took the quarry do
is that right?
�. Yes, and how far the water level came up.
I'm assuming the water level would come up
to either the level of Crabtree Creek or this
feeder --- feeder creek.
Q► Assuming the level of water in the -- in the late
as -- after being reclaimed would be the same as
the level in Crabtree Creek, can you estimate
how high the free wall would be; using the
topographical map?
A. Using as shown, I will read the level of Crabtree
Creek. It's something like two sixty-eight.
Elevation two sixty-eight (268) mean sea level.
Actually that's the top of the bank, so the normal
stream is maybe five feet below that.
Say, two sixty-two, edge of the quarry wall
as proposed, it's about elevation three -- about
three thirty (330) .
So, that's three thirty (330) and two
sixty-two (262) , seventy feet.
MR. OAKLEY: Thank you.
We have no further questions.
CHAIRMAN SMITH: Excuse me just a minute,
0

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Simons Direct -436--
gentlemen.
Mr. Kimzey, the Commission has been at this
hearing in one way or another for fourteen hours,
and we want to defer cross-examination until
in the morning.
MR. KIMZEY: Counsel has, too, thank you,
sir.
MS. FRENCH: I believe the first witness is
going to be called tomorrow morning at nine o'clock
Is that your witness, Per. Kimzey?
MR. KIMZEY-. That's correct. Will be a
very brief witness and then we'll get to cross-
examination of Mr.Simons.
My. FRENCH: So, this hearing will recon-
vene tomorrow morning at nine o'clock (9:00).
(Thereupon, the hearing was recessed at 10:20
P.M., on Thursday, November 6, 1980, to recon-
vene at 9:00 a.m., on Friday, November 7,
1980.)
(Reporter's Dote; There are no page numbers in this
transcript from and including 438 - 449. Volume III
continues at page 450 with no break in the context.)
.

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Mining Commission -437-
C E R T.I F I C A T E
I, Manie P. Currin, a Court Reporter and Notary
Public in and for the State of North Carolina, duly com-
missioned, qualified and authorized to take and certify
hearings, do hereby certify that I stenographically recorded
the verbatim proceedings at the time and place aforesaid
and same was reduced to typewritten form; that the record
appearing in the preceding pages 282 - 436 is a true and cor-
rect transcript of said proceedings to the beat of my abilit
and understanding; that I am not related to any of the parties
to this action; that I am not of counsel.; and that
I ant not interested in the event of this cause.
IN WITNESS WHEREOF# I have hereunto set myband
and affixed my official seal this the 24th day of November,
1980.
BMW
NOTARY PUBLIC
My commission expires 7-1-81.
Mania P. Currin
Court Reporter
203 Main Street
Oxford, North Carolina 27565
Telephone: [phone]